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Author Topic: Interesting info on 2cycle diesel lubrication  (Read 2600 times)
fortyniner
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« on: June 28, 2012, 04:37:50 AM »

Im starting to get pretty nervous about obtaining the proper oil for the 8v71. The Delo 100 is getting harder to find all the time. While trying to figure out what oil choices are available I stumbled onto this article which among other things finally explains exactly why ash content is a problem with 2cycle diesel engines.

http://www.shell.com/home/content/marine_products/products/lubricants/oil_stress/

I found a decently priced Costal 40wt fleet oil that claims to be ok for 2stroke diesels. .9% ash.

I wonder what are the marine guys doing about this.

-Tom P.
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2012, 06:32:59 AM »

I couldn't find where they discussed ash content?

This Shell article might not be applicable to our Detroit Diesel engines, this may be something for those big ship engines, which many are two strokes of other manufacturers, and function in different ways.

Try this collection of information at Tegas Coach Works for a bunch of specifically Detroit Diesel testing:

http://www.tejascoach.com/tips.html

Our oil will be available, there are simply too many of these engines still in service on the road, in off-road equipment, and in boats, and will be for a long time to come.

You just might have to get used to the idea of having to order it in rather than it being on the shelf, depending on where you are, and how much demand there is locally to you.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 06:59:35 AM »

Tom,

Do you have any fleet farm stores near you? They have straight 30 and 40 weight that meets our 2 strokes needs.

Rick
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 07:44:08 AM »

Do you have any fleet farm stores near you? They have straight 30 and 40 weight that meets our 2 strokes needs.

That 40 weight oil that Mills Fleet Farm sells at their stores in Minnesota and Wisconsin appears to have 1.2% ash content.  I just bought 10 gallons of Mystik 15W-40 oil at Mills Fleet Farm last night to change my oil.  I had been checking the specs online before I bought the oil.
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2012, 08:13:32 AM »

Brian,

I've been running that oil now for 10 years. I'm not sure what the ash content is supposed to be but I know that the codes on the 5 gallon bottle were what basically every mechanic that I've talked to about this recommended. That said, if I were to have a catastrophic oil related issue after 10 years of running an oil I'm not sure anyone could prove it's because of a difference of .9 and 1.2 ash content and the fact that my motor ran for 10 years on it without an issue seems to prove that the oil has proven itself to be capable of maintaining the lubrication of my engine. Any guarantee above 10 years would be unrealistic in my opinion and the belief that oil is solely responsible for the millions of things that can go wrong in our engines is placing too much emphasis on a product to be responsible for my motor's health.

There seems to be 2-3 things that we discuss on this board that we are never all gonna agree upon for the duration of the board. Oil, it's ash content, it's viscosity seem to be one such hot button.

Respectfully,

rick
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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 08:45:43 AM »

And you can keep running it Rick and it won't damage your engine ,the almighty Delo 100 just made on the market in late 60's that was 30 years after the birth of 2 stroke 

For years we ran series 3 and the SL rated oils in the 71 series and I don't see the 71 series lasting any longer with the low ash oils   

The only DD engine I see touchy about low ash oil is the 149 series and that is a totally different animal,
 
Good grief look at the spec on the oil the military uses in those engine ML-2014
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2012, 09:17:04 AM »

There's propaganda, there's speculation, there's studies in controlled labs by folks who have never stepped foot on a bus, there's guys like me who have limited personal experience and knowledge and then there's Clifford.

The guy just makes me smile.

I would like to be as sure about one thing in my life as he is about most things in his life. Take him or leave him the guy has a confidence about him that doesn't come from books or opinion polls or hearsay. It comes from being covered in oil, up to your eyeballs, in a two stroke crankcase with torque wrenches flying every which way and micrometers in search of the "true" health of a motor.

You are a blessing among us Clifford and we are grateful.

RB
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 09:44:38 AM »

I'm not saying the 40 weight oil from Mills Fleet Farm won't work.  I just mentioned for the people who are sticklers for specs that technically their 40 weight oil is over the ash spec although I believe the bottle says it is certified for Detroit.

I've never purchased 40 weight oil since I don't have a 2 stroke.  I'm not all that picky about which 15W-40 gets used in my Series 60.
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 12:35:48 PM »

try wallmart. our wallmart carries the delo 100
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 01:14:34 PM »

Yes the military runs 15W-40 in their 2 stroke engine-but the military also has only a 2,000 hour requirement on their engines.  And if the engines do take a dump-the military has endless money supply to rebuild/replace the engines. 
We don't have that luxury.  Please run only 2 stroke approved 40 weight in your 2 stroke Detroit Diesel.
Simple explanation.  With multi grad oils-like 15W-40-there are emulsifiers (I think that's the right expression) that takes a 15 weight oil to make the engine think it is a 40 weight oil.  Think of oil as chemical ball bearings.  In a 4 stroke engine, it relaxes after every power stroke with the exhaust and intake stroke giving these oil ball bearings a chance to bounce back after being crushed under the power stroke.  On a 2 stroke, the engine never relaxes-it is either compressing or powering all the time with a very short exhaust and intake time.  Hence the oil ball bearings don't have a chance to bounce back-keep them compressed down to a 15 weight oil-hence your 2 stroke engine is only seeing a 15 weight oil.  Straight 40 weight will not allow that to happen. 
There have been too many visual tests by Detroit to see the destructive action of using 15W-40 that keeps me using 40 weight.

If you're in Texas, Houston and Gulf cities will be carrying straight 40 weight for the oil industry crew boats-too many still in service with 2 stroke Detroits.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2012, 01:32:30 PM »

Bet you Fairchild and Geoff never knew that lol I never used 15/40 in 71 series because of the cooling of the pistons but seen lot of 53 series and 92 series with 6000+ hrs that never had anything but 15/40 oil not that I recommend it.

Where did we get off on the 15/40 ? thought this was about ash content
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fortyniner
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2012, 02:31:48 PM »

What, a wallmart has delo 100? Not mine (austin tx).

Im in Texas, I just need the brand names of some good ones. Costal brand has .9 ash and is
available in straight weight but that higher ash than Id like..

Im sure there are plenty of good DD oils available since the marine industry is so
dependent on them.




 
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Tom Phillips
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2012, 02:43:55 PM »

Do you really think that .90% ash in Coastal oil which by the way is big in the 2 strokes around Corpus Christi and Gulf coast area where it is made and the Delo 100 with .85% ash is going to make a difference lol you guys and this oil thing


good luck
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fortyniner
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2012, 02:53:50 PM »

Heck if I know. 1.5% doesnt sound like much to me but apparently its significant.

-Tom P.
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Tom Phillips
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2012, 03:03:19 PM »

How are you coming up with 1.5  difference do you work in DC fuzzy math there buddy  .90 -.85 =.05 when I went to school and for you wise asses before you comment yes they had schools when I was young lol

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Iceni John
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2012, 04:06:50 PM »

Anyway, back to the OP's Shell article  -  what's interesting is that it says the large marine two-stroke engines don't have sumps, and instead their oil is injected, used, then drains away, in other words they're considered to be Total Loss Lubrication.   (Sort of like old British cars and motorbikes, where the oil gets totally lost after a while as it drips out everywhere.)   Shell's description sounds very different from the Detroits we know and love.   No sump?   This has piqued my curiosity  -  I'll have to read up about the huge marine two-strokes.

I was reading something else recently about Gardner two-stroke diesels  -  no, I didn't know that Gardner ever made two-strokes, but apparently they did, and they were reversible!   I wonder how that would have worked, especially regarding their lubrication.   Maybe their oil pumps worked both ways?   I know that a Detroit running backwards won't last long because of lack of oil.

Just curious.
John 
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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2012, 04:16:39 PM »

The Copper V-250 was a 2 stroke the direction you started the engine was the direction it turned fwiw still a lot of those in use on compressor stations
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2012, 06:07:31 PM »

Some oils were near 1.5% which is only 0.65% more than Delo 100 at 0.85%.  Doesnt seem like much but Delo 400 specifically warns its not for 2strokes. So roughly 0.5% apparently is a significant difference. The way I see it if 0.5% is significant then 0.1%  difference is not trivial.

This stuff lists for $71 5gl:
http://www.warrenoil.com/MSDS-Spec/PDS/Coastal/PDS%20-%20Coastal%20HD%20Fleet%20Engine%20Oil%2010%2030%2040%2050.pdf

I think Autozone here in Texas can get it.


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Tom Phillips
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2012, 06:17:23 PM »

I suspect the reason Delo 400 is not recommended is because Detroit calls for 1% or less ash and Delo 400 is way over that.  I agree with Clifford that bus nuts tend to spend way too much time agonizing over which oil to use in their bus.  I don't have a two stroke, but if I did I would just use whatever oil met the Detroit specs.  I know a number of bus nuts who use a local bus garage for oil changes (myself included) and I doubt they question the specs of the bulk 40 weight oil used for two strokes.
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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2012, 06:29:23 PM »

Go to a store where they sell Delo 400 in 15/40 and the straight 40 read carefully both cans it will say on the straight 40 w meets specs for MTU 1 and 2 engines now read the 15/40 can and it will say on the can for only one engine (4 stroke) it's been that way since 2010 believe the internet or your lying eyes lol

good luck
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« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2012, 02:32:39 AM »

There are other reasons beyond ash content that makes an oil suitable or not for two stroke Detroit's. 

Brian
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« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2012, 06:39:16 AM »

Brian, the ash in oil has always had to been adjusted for the sulfur content in fuel  on 2 strokes these guys carry on about oil but when it comes to fuel what ever a station sales, number 2 diesel has never been the primary fuel for the 149 series engine fwiw
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« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2012, 07:33:43 AM »

Tom P aka Forty Niner,

I apologize if I did anything to skew this post away from your original question. That said, I think whoever posted that we may have to look at ordering our oil from a wholesaler in the near future may be closest to answering your post correctly. It is getting harder to find all of the oils that have been discussed in large enough quantities to keep us from getting worried about running out. I have always been able to order through NAPA basically any one of a half dozen compatible motor oils so I'd check there first.

We're not "running out of oil" for our buses that's for sure. They're just not stocking it on the shelves is all.

I think the reason it is such a sticking point for the board has more to do with the fear of getting the wrong oil and needing to do a rebuild than just trying to be proactive in protecting our engines. Let's face it, we all have a pretty good idea that any day you have to replace an engine in one of these behemoths is a pretty bad day! Unless it's the day after you win the lottery or a rich friend dies and leaves you all their money. In that case, I'll take a Cummins ISM tuned to 450 HP and a B500 to go... Do you guys deliver?

All in fun,
Rick

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« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2012, 07:52:04 AM »

Just for fun information:

On super large 2 stroke engines used on ships-the kind that are directly coupled to the propeller with no gears and are directly reversible (we're talking 38"x98" bore and stroke compared to a 71's 4.25"x5")-yes they do not have a sump in the engine-but the oil is drained back to big tanks-usually around 1,000gals.  Then the oil is fed through a centrifuge, water/oil separator, and filtered multiple times before returning to the oil pump.

The biggest 4 stroke engines are about 40,000hp-because of the massive reciprocating masses, the 4 strokes just can't get larger.  Then 2 strokes take over.  The largest is a 14 cylinder engine pushing around 130,000hp at 102rpm (your engine cranks over faster than that).  Goggle worlds largest diesel.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2012, 08:45:50 AM »

Tom, the question is what viscosity and ash content is that 1000 gallons of oil??? Just kidding, under no circumstances do we need that question answered. Grin Grin Grin Grin

RB
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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2012, 08:47:09 AM »

There's a place to consider getting WMO for our more adventurous thrill seekers. What an expensive oil change. Holy crap!
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2012, 09:07:56 AM »

I don't mean to be the "math police", but 1.5% content is 76% higher than .85%.  That DOES appear significant. That said, I currently use Shell 40W with 1% content in my 6-71; I believe this is barely within spec.
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Paul, High Desert CA
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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2012, 11:03:48 AM »

Right, 76% higher, I should have said 0.65 difference in percents. The point I was considering was whether the change between 0.85 and ~1.5 is really enough to cause trouble down the road. Is there an ash tipping point, go over the magic 1% and boom, good by motor? I sort of doubt that but Im new to these beasts and would rather be taught than learn (the hard way).

-Tom P.
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Tom Phillips
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« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2012, 11:33:17 AM »

Consider what would happen if there were 76% less air Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2012, 08:27:01 AM »

i kinda doubt it also... not to mention occasional white house math.... Grin
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« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2012, 09:01:18 AM »

Tom P,

I think that was the answer I was trying to give you to begin with. I have been running an oil that is deemed too high in ash content for 10 years and 60k miles now. No boom yet... Since the guarantee on a reliabilt is less than half that number I would say that the claims that these are unsafe oils are over reaching and under "realtime" analyzed. There's conjecture and there's fact. My motor has run awesome for 10 years. That is a fact. No study can undo that. There's too much info and warnings our there by pencil pushers that contradicts our eyes and personal experience and there's plenty that have been "influenced" by outside forces.

Hmmm, regional sales guy from XYZ oil would like to increase sales to a certain demographic (bus and two stroke diesel owners) so he "invents" a study that says his competitor ABC oil has an inferior product. That is not verifiable nor unbiased empirical data to base a 'truth" upon.

Before everyone starts a flame fest over this remember who we're talking about here... Big Oil. Spare us all the BS and rhetoric that they give a %$#@$ about us or our nation.

Guys would kill their grandmother for their stockholders...
RB
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« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2012, 09:27:27 AM »

Wow fortyniner was talking about .9 ash content of the Coastal brand of oil compared to the Delo .85 brand and here we are at 1.5 the oil companies can post all the BS they want but no C rated oil will be over 1% ash and in 2013 that drops to .5 I am already buying Delo 400 with .5 ash content as Ripley says believe it or not.

You nailed it RickB lol 

good luck
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« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2012, 09:31:46 AM »

"Guys would kill their grandmother for their stockholders..."    Really? i have some stock in 3 different oil companies and i sure ain't getting rich off of all of their high profits. 1-2 percent dividends, so who is getting the big bucks? Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2012, 12:43:58 PM »

Ed 1to2% beats the banks lol
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« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2012, 01:17:55 PM »

Exxon Mobil Corporation (XOM)

Prev Close:   83.10
Open:   84.78
Bid:   85.45 x 100
Ask:   85.65 x 100


P/E (ttm):   10.33
EPS (ttm):   8.28
Div & Yield:   2.28 (2.70%)

As luvrbus says; "1-2% beats the banks"

I'll stick with my Exxon.

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