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Author Topic: Smoking 8V92TA DDEC II  (Read 6132 times)
Sam 4106
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« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2012, 05:15:20 AM »

Thanks for all your help. Am I damaging the engine by continuing to drive the bus if I have bad injectors? We planned to go to a Midwest Bus Nuts rally this weekend near Dubuque, WI, 120 miles each way. Will I dilute the oil or score a cylinder by driving with a bad injector? I may be worried about nothing since the mechanic told me he wouldn't do any work on the engine because it runs so well. He told me the boost pressure was about 15 pounds the first time I was at the shop, but didn't put his computer on the engine during the second road test with the replacement ECM.

There is a Detroit Diesel shop at La Crosse, WI 10 miles from me if that is my only alternative to diagnose what the problem is. But with my recent past experience at DD in Fargo, ND I am reluctant to take it there. Will an independent shop likely have a computer for a DDEC II engine? There is a shop that is good with DD engines 80 miles away but I don't know if they have the right computer. C & J bus repair is 150 miles away and they have a good reputation. I will be making some phone calls today to see if I can get this engine fixed. The stress of this problem is adding to my already poor health situation so I hope I can find a fix soon.

Thanks, Sam
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1976 MCI-8TA with 8V92 DDEC II and Allison HT740
Hard Headed Ken
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« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2012, 05:38:46 AM »

I don't think 15 lbs is enough boost. How bad and under what conditions is it black smoking? 1/4 throttle, full throttle?? Clifford is correct. They could have at least run a cylinder balance test, requires all the trouble of pushing 1 button with DDL. What I usually hear after someone has their Series 60 ECM replaced or reprogrammed at a dealer is that they donít have as much power. My contact at the Detroit Dealer says thatís because the newer program has the latest emissions levels available for that engine. So I doubt if a new program will dump more fuel into your engine, itís not impossible. At this time I have no ECM programs from a 8V92, but I just called in a favor and should have my old ECM from my 475 HP 8V92 in my hands in a few days. Don't change engines yet. Give me a few days to get my old ECM and extract the program, then you can send me your ECM if you like and I can compare the tables that would cause excess fueling. In the mean time you could install a boost gauge, maybe you'll be lucky and there will be a  pipe plug between the turbo and the blower that you could remove for the boost gauge line, Clifford may know if it has a plug. Any name brand Boost gauge from ebay will work. I would get one that goes to 50 lbs. Boost pressure depends on a several factors, but you should mid 20's on a long hard pull, maybe 30 or so near sea level on really cold day. Any decent air pressure gauge will work, it would be better if it were 0 to 50 or 60 PSI. I recommend using 1/8 plastic line. I tried 1/4 in my 4104 and it made the response time of the gauge slow because of the volume required to fill the line. I notice my 88 Prevost had 1/8 from the factory. Don't worry about the EGT's yet, it's more work to install that gauge and the boost may tell you what you need to know.  I donít think there are many software levels for DDEC II. If my old ECM program looks better than what you currently have I can install the related portions of it into your ECM. I included a couple pictures of fuel maps Iím modifying for more fuel, of course the fuel maps can be modified for less fuel also. Before we change anything about your ECM program letís try and make sure all your related mechanical stuff is working correctly. What area of the country are you in?

Ken



https://www.dropbox.com/s/da2psman5zhqcve/Original%20Map.jpg



https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8rx6g401d7t1jc/More%20Fuel.jpg

« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 06:04:30 AM by Hard Headed Ken » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2012, 05:42:29 AM »

Sam, I have heard folks talking about using an infrared gun to check exhaust manifold temperature at each cylinder.  I have not done that.  Not sure if you do it at idle, or just after a run on the bus for a few miles.

The data port of the DDEC II is different, but I would think C&J would have the adapter.  Most any diagnostic device should be able to run the cut-out test.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2012, 05:50:23 AM »

Sam,

Sorry about the stress my friend. I'm more than willing to come down in the next couple of days if that would help. I think Dan and JD at C&J coach would be able to find the source of your problems but I highly recommend Curt at Central truck in East Bethel as well.

Rick
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« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2012, 05:58:44 AM »

A good device to run a cut out test is a called a screw driver if you remove the valve covers the ECM I don't think is his problem and Ken is right on with the boost numbers for the 8v92 DDEC the mechanical engines do fine with 15 lbs 

good luck
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 06:11:36 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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RickB
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« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2012, 06:30:54 AM »

Luvrbus,

So you're leaning towards a failing turbo?. If that's the case he probably wants to get that off before it comes apart correct? So how can Sam troubleshoot it?

Sam, I think the best way to proceed is to take it someplace to have the injectors cut out, one by one, to see if you have a bad injector as Clifford said. If that's not the problem turn your attention to the turbo. I mean the first test must be a boost test correct? and it appears to have already failed that. Since the boost cannot be adjusted by the ECM that may be the first real sign of an issue that would cause the smoke. Worn seals etc.

Rick

Sam, we could do that in an afternoon if thats the case.
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« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2012, 07:11:26 AM »

Boy-I sure like mechanical engines!
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« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2012, 07:16:15 AM »

Most of the time it is a simple fix here is a example a friend has a 8v71 it was smoking bad I told he had a air problem for over a year  

People and dealers told him he needed a blower then injectors, overhaul you name it the best one was he has a N/A 8v71 and someone told him the after cooler was plugged

He did change the injectors still black smoke he was at Sonnies place guess what Sonnie found the emergency shut down had come apart and the gate was laying loose inside the housing he took it a tossed it no more smoke

Moral of the story don't get stressed be clam and do a little trouble shooting it doesn't take much to make these old 2 strokes happy DDEC or mechanical but paying 100 bucks a hour with no results will stress you Sam lol

good luck
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 07:41:24 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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hargreaves
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« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2012, 09:35:15 AM »

Hi Sam , As Clifford mentioned , have you changed the  turbo boost sensor.  There is a program in the ECM that reduces the amount of fuel when accelerating. It shows up on the MPSI as smoke control. The ECM takes the throttle count and the boost pressure count and determines if the fuel should be cut back to eliminate smoke on acceleration. if your turbo is on its way out the ECM will deliver less fuel so it will still not smoke.. The turbo boost sensor has a direct affect on this calculation.  Try changing it and see what happens.     Cheers Gerry
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« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2012, 10:27:44 AM »

Sam,
Don't worry about damageing your engine because of a little black smoke.  With out a throttle delay all non DD 8v92's smoke.  Some real bad, I know.  Most of the info here has been good.  I think the most important thing you can have with a turbo engine is a boost gauge.  I will give you more info than anything you can put on the engine.  Now would be the time to go back to the silver leaf.  It is showing you the same boost as the ecm is seeing.  If the boost sensor is telling the ecm you have boost and you don't it will make the engine smoke.  If you have a boost gauge and the silver leaf they should match.  Like Ken said just a 1/8 in tube. 
I would think they did a cut out test on your engine and from what the dealer told you I don't think you have a bad injector.  The 15 lbs of boost could be your problem and it could just be turbo lag.  If you can't get at least 26 lbs of boost you have a problem, but it won't damage your engine unless you let it heat up because of low power.  With low boost you won't be able to develop the power you should be getting.
Enjoy your coach until you get the boost info and quit spending money you don't need to spend.
Jack
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2012, 11:39:44 AM »

Hi Guys,

I live in La Crescent, Minnesota (southeast corner) across the Mississippi river from La Crosse, WI. I calculated my fuel milage from Fargo, ND home and got only 4.43 MPG. That is down from a previous average of 5.96 MPG over 6732 miles prior to the ECM change and down from the 5.00 MPG since the ECM change up until Fargo. So the problem is getting worse and I won't be driving except to take it to a repair shop. I called the local DD dealer and they want $140/hr. to work on it, because it is an RV. I can get it worked on tomorrow afternoon but I think I will take a few days to think it over before making a decision on what to do.

Gerry, I have not changed the turbo boost sensor because the mechanic in Fargo said that was not the problem. If I need to change that where is it located. I don't have the book for the engine.

Rick, how much does Central Truck charge to work on a bus? I might take a chance on driving it to him if he is cheaper.

Clifford, how would I cut out 1 cylinder at a time with a screw driver? I am willing to try that if you will tell me how. I suspect that I have at least 1 bad injector. I may also have other issues. I smelled the oil on the dip stick and there is no fuel smell. The oil level is the same as it was when checked in Fargo. So I don't think fuel is diluting the oil, if that matters.

Ken, thanks for the offer to check my ECM but I really don't think that is the problem now. The black smoke happens at any throttle setting but is worst at full throttle.

Don, when in September will you be in Minnesota? I am 4 miles south of I 90 if that would be your intended route. We have a full hookup place to park in front of my shop. We will be gone on a cruise to Alaska Sept. 6-16. Otherwise we will be home.

Jack, they did not do a cut out test on my engine. I was standing right by the mechanic the entire time he was working on it. He said he could do the cut out test but didn't because he was convinced that the black smoke was normal. Unfortunately I didn't know any better at the time.

Thanks for all the advise. After a break away from the bus I will decide what I'm going to do.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 11:50:19 AM by Sam 4106 » Logged

1976 MCI-8TA with 8V92 DDEC II and Allison HT740
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« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2012, 12:42:32 PM »

Ken, thanks for the offer to check my ECM but I really don't think that is the problem now. The black smoke happens at any throttle setting but is worst at full throttle.

Sam, I too think it's unlikely an ECM problem. Maybe low boost pressure, faulty injector or boost pressure sensor, but the sensor should have set a code, but it's not totally impossible that it wouldn't.

Ken
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« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2012, 01:33:12 PM »

Sam,

C&J is $105 an hour and Curt is $75 an hour. C&J uses Curt for all their major rebuilds (heads, cranks etc.) he is an excellent mechanic and has rebuilt literally hundreds if not thousands of two strokes. Great guy, I trust him implicitly with my bus. If I'm having work done that is exclusive to a bus as opposed to a truck like the complex air system that is in our MCI's then I turn to C&J otherwise I use Curt and his staff. If you want me to meet you and follow you or if you want to come stay with us for a day you are welcome. Bring your wife along as well. I'm sorry to hear that your health issues may be ongoing still. Keep your chin up my friend and I agree that it's unlikely to damage you engine unless you start seeing engine temps rise.

We are moving closer to you in a few weeks (Prescott WI)and we'll have to do a better job of staying in touch. Call me if you need help Sam.
six one two three eight five eight three nine seven

Rick

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« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2012, 01:36:57 PM »

Sorry Sam the last three digits are seven three nine seven. Typing out numbers using letters is actually kind of weird.

Rick


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« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2012, 03:24:49 PM »

Sam, before you do anything, I strongly recommend, as others have, that you install a boost pressure gauge.  

As I found out when I changed engines, the ECM can be getting a signal from the electronic sensor that is not the real boost.  In my case, it was a different style sensor from the one the ECM expected to see.  Once I saw that the mechanical gauge was over 20 and the ECM was seeing about 13, it was clear to me what was happening.

I did not go back through all of the posts, but Ken mentioned that you were only getting 15 pounds boost.  If that is on flat ground maybe that is acceptable, but on a hard hill with full power, you should be into the 20s.

A boost gauge is great for warning you of turbo issues, partially clogged fuel filters, dirty air filter, etc.  If the engine does not get sufficient air and fuel, it will not build good boost.

I would check your air filter and plumbing to make sure that something is not cutting down the supply.  It is pretty easy to pull the flexible hose off of most turbos to see if there is any significant play on the shaft.  

Jim
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 03:27:45 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
í85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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