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Author Topic: Wierd situation when buying off road diesel  (Read 3057 times)
belfert
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« on: September 14, 2012, 10:40:08 PM »

The other day I needed to buy some diesel to fill the fuel filters on my Proheat and my generator.  The gas station has an off road diesel pump so I figured I would buy off road diesel to save a little bit.

When I went to pay the register had a higher amount than the amount on the pump.  I asked and it turns out you still have to pay the road tax and then request a refund from the state.  Why even sell off road diesel then?  One can apply a refund of road tax paid on regular on road diesel so no need for the dyed diesel if you still have to pay tax upfront.  I would have bought regular on road diesel had I known I wouldn't save on tax.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2012, 07:30:41 AM »

That varies from state to state Brian in Texas you get the taxes off at the pump,here in AZ you apply for a refund like in MN it  not worth the hassle sometimes
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2012, 08:12:08 AM »

Here in California they do sell red dyed off road Diesel.  Don't be caught with red dyed in your tank.  If you put auto trans fluid in the Diesel to clean injectors, it will also look red.  But-the legal testing labs can tell the difference between auto trans fluid and red dye.  Personally-it just isn't worth the few penny's you might save using off road Diesel.

On my truck, I have a 150gal main tank and a separate 75gal tank for my genset.  The two are connected by a bottom hose that I have two (one on each tank) ball valves.  They are there in case one tank gets low and I need to transfer fuel.  But once you use off road red dyed fuel, it takes quite a few tanks of fuel to get rid of.  Once again, not worth it.  Good luck, TomC
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2012, 08:57:50 AM »

So, in an RV, how would one get caught with red dye Diesel in their tank?

TM
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2012, 09:48:20 AM »

Highway patrols will sometimes set up road blocks and dip all vehicles with diesel engines.  Never seen such a road block, but I have heard it happens.

The little bit of off road diesel I bought was to fill fuel filters on my generator and Proheat.  I am not planning to put it in my main tank although I doubt half a gallon in a 150 gallon tank would be noticeable.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2012, 10:34:06 AM »

So, in an RV, how would one get caught with red dye Diesel in their tank?

Not saying this actually happened but here's a possible scenario:

Suppose you're a naive Canuck who comes from a jurisdiction where the only way you can get dyed diesel fuel is by filling out a permit app, getting a magic number from the gummit, providing that number to your fuel dealer and then getting a special code for the pump so that it will dispense dyed fuel.  Now suppose you happen to be in, oh I don't know, let's say Helena, Montana planning to visit Skip and you stop at the fuel pumps on the east side of town to fill up the bus.  You put in your card, stick the nozzle in the tank, wash the windshield, screw around a bit and then the pump kicks out at $75.  You say %^&*, restart the pump and then maybe you're standing there idly reading a little scrap of paper taped to the pump which says "this pump dispenses dyed diesel fuel for offroad use only"

That's one possible way you could get dyed diesel fuel in your bus.  And not saying it happened, but if it did and if you were in Airdrie, Alberta about a month later working on your ProHeat you'd still be able to see the red in the fuel.

Just saying.
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2012, 09:32:44 PM »

Well in theory that would have been the fuel stop that has the
Early Bird  Cafe hooked to it.  Foods ok.  Most of the pumps in town have nozzles that are red in color to indicate dyed diesel.   

In MT the fine is $5,000.  I've heard stories of farmers with their F-250 being checked and fined for red dye. 

I've always wondered what the defense would be if the previous owner had added red fuel, and you were caught with it in the tank.

John M.
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2012, 10:02:51 PM »

Hi All, I don't think they would have to look very far if you send in a request for a refund for off road diesel and they click on your name and see you don't have an off road vehicle that takes 140 gallons, but you doo have a bus that is an on road vehicle prohibited from using that fuel that can hold that 140 gallons, they most likely will not send you your rebate, but probably a summons instead, lvmci...
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2012, 03:31:49 AM »

John, you said; "I've always wondered what the defense would be if the previous owner had added red fuel, and you were caught with it in the tank."
Would not matter one iota to them, when they see red in a tank, they have testosterone running out their pores and look like a dog in heat! Can't wait to fine you!
Jack
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2012, 06:22:51 AM »

Went though a check years ago (1996) in Baton Rouge La. They were pulling samples of all diesels engine vehicles. Already had 4 or 5 sitting waiting to be hauled or towed off. I had 2 of my welding units working out of West Texas down there, at a bridge by Mississippi river. These Boys overseeing this with IRS agents. Told me they would pull and drain tanks and would be up to me to install them back if caught with off road (red) fuel. 10,000 dollar fine for my company, a fine per gallon and a fine for mile what was showing on odometer. Scared me to death because we always run red stuff off the drilling rigs back then. I think we had  both 1 tons full when we left to go down there. I had filled up a few times with the good stuff before they checked us. Luckily no dye in samples, but it was the longest 15 minutes of my life. Broke me of the habit of saving a buck. I now have a fuel permit to buy the red stuff on the farm but don't dare put it in the bus or on road diesel trucks.
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2012, 06:59:11 AM »

You have always been allowed to use red fuel in highway vehicles I done it for years some states require a bond some just stacks of paper work to use it

Carry the paper work to prove that you pay the highway taxes it is not a problem it never was for me and be prepared for a audit because they will do one lol
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2012, 07:11:10 AM »

Brian they do it for the same reason retailers use mail in rebates.  Only 30% of the people will go through the effort.  They have just generated a 70% up tic in profit by pretending to help you out with lower pricing.  And we swallow it hook line and sinker.....

Always remember, individuals are smart, people are stupid..........

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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2012, 07:20:31 AM »

I have seen them dipping tanks in Az a couple of years ago. Every diesel powered rig headed south to Yuma was getting pulled over and checked.  They stopped us for a few moments but they had 4-5 rigs that they were checking so they just waved us on thru.
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2012, 07:36:15 AM »

You probably would see more abuse in an agricultural area with non taxed diesel for tractors and such stored on farm alongside road taxed clear diesel for the trucks and pickups. Boat fuel (gas or diesel) is another item that gets charged road tax and you can send in a form to get a rebate. Nobody does. Not worth the hassle.
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2012, 07:41:51 AM »

Brian they do it for the same reason retailers use mail in rebates.  Only 30% of the people will go through the effort.  They have just generated a 70% up tic in profit by pretending to help you out with lower pricing.  And we swallow it hook line and sinker.....

Why would a gas station go to the expense of installing a special tank and pump for dyed diesel if they have to charge the same price as regular diesel?

The rules on tax free diesel are somewhat complex in Minnesota.  I read the statute, but came away confused.  It isn't clear if personal use is even refundable if the fuel is used in a generator.  The refund form asks how much "un-dyed" diesel you used that should not be taxed.  The form seems to indicate that dyed diesel should not have been charged tax in the first place.  It is a moot point anyhow.  The amount of extra tax I paid the other day was less than 30 cents.  I don't track diesel use in the generator closely enough to send in for a rebate.  It might be a whole $10 in a year.
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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2012, 09:49:47 AM »

It varies from state to state I did a job in Texas and was only allowed 25,000 gals per month tax free running 10 or 12 pieces of equipment 7 days a week it was gone in 2 weeks then it was a battle, then in OK they had no limit so I transported it from OK to Texas the high authorities in Texas said it was legal

good luck
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2012, 10:29:59 AM »

  Why would a gas station go to the expense of installing a special tank and pump for dyed diesel if they have to charge the same price as regular diesel?   

        It just seems to be weird where ever.  My dad had a small farm near my hometown and he had a diesel tractor; he was retired and never used it for anything but mowing grass etc.  There was a farm-supply store just across the highway from the entrance lane to his farm and he always had them repair the mower equipment, change batteries and oil, etc.  After my dad died, I took the tractor over to them and asked they to check it over and give it a general service before we sold it.  They returned it to me and I paid the shop fee and then thought "I don't know how old the fuel is or how much is in it" so I drove over to the "Non-Hwy" diesel pump.  Before I could pump any fuel, the owner came out and said "you can't pump that unless you have your farm tax number".   Here I am with a diesel tractor that he's worked on for 20 years that was kept on a farm across the road from his shop and he can't/won't sell me non-taxed fuel.  I just drove it over to the road-diesel pump and filled it. 
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2012, 10:34:32 AM »

At least here in California, the red dyed Diesel takes off the $.42 road tax.  In my book that's just not enough savings to justify all the problems it can create with fines, audits, etc.  Best just to use clear Diesel.

On that note-the new ultra-low sulphur is as clear as water.  So any discoloring will easily show up.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2012, 11:14:52 AM »

Isn't home heating fuel just deisel? And its clear.
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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2012, 10:17:40 PM »

Home heating fuel can be Diesel Fuel-and it can also be dedicated Home Heating Fuel which is Diesel Fuel without the added lubricity that makes Diesel work well lubing the injectors.  Personally would not risk it.  Or maybe add a quart of oil to each 20 gal?  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 07:52:30 PM »

If you fill your filters with it and the device has a return to the tank you just put dyed fuel in the tank.
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 08:25:10 PM »

 It only takes a 1/2 pound of Solvent Red 24 dye to color a 8500 gal tanker load of fuel I have watched it done the stuff is very toxic contains lead,ash and arsenic 

I guess that is why it is not manufactured here the stuff I saw was manufactured in India
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2012, 02:17:28 PM »

Must be something new. It's been a couple years since I bought off road diesel for my backhoe, but I didn't have to pay a higher price or fill out a form for a refund.

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« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2012, 08:11:15 AM »

In Nebraska in the fall all the farmers are hauling corn to town with these ancient trucks that see the road one week a year.  They set up safety stops on all the roads to town, dip the tanks, and check tires etc. because the farmers are always running nontax fuel, the tires are 30 years old, only one brake works, and the license plate was borrowed of the pickup.
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« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2012, 08:28:32 AM »

If you fill your filters with it and the device has a return to the tank you just put dyed fuel in the tank.

That is one thing I never thought of.  My Proheat has no return, but the generator does.  Less than one quart of red diesel likely isn't detectable now after burning 525 gallons of fuel since then.  I forgot all about the red dye when I bought my one gallon of off road diesel.
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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2012, 03:46:19 PM »

So, in an RV, how would one get caught with red dye Diesel in their tank?

Not saying this actually happened but here's a possible scenario:

Suppose you're a naive Canuck who comes from a jurisdiction where the only way you can get dyed diesel fuel is by filling out a permit app, getting a magic number from the gummit, providing that number to your fuel dealer and then getting a special code for the pump so that it will dispense dyed fuel.  Now suppose you happen to be in, oh I don't know, let's say Helena, Montana planning to visit Skip and you stop at the fuel pumps on the east side of town to fill up the bus.  You put in your card, stick the nozzle in the tank, wash the windshield, screw around a bit and then the pump kicks out at $75.  You say %^&*, restart the pump and then maybe you're standing there idly reading a little scrap of paper taped to the pump which says "this pump dispenses dyed diesel fuel for offroad use only"

That's one possible way you could get dyed diesel fuel in your bus.  And not saying it happened, but if it did and if you were in Airdrie, Alberta about a month later working on your ProHeat you'd still be able to see the red in the fuel.

Just saying.

This is too Funny
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