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Author Topic: R12-DC relay valve again  (Read 5457 times)
rwc
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« on: October 03, 2012, 10:18:33 AM »

Sorry but after the last valve turned out to be Parking brake pressure regulator replaced it and now can here leak from this valve which I think is the real R12. The air schematic for the 102D3 is not very helpful. Pictures attached.
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bevans6
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 11:42:03 AM »

I'd just replace it, they aren't very expensive.  Does it leak all the time, or just when the service brakes are applied?  Do you have spring brakes, or DD-3's?  It takes service air pressure from the dry tank and sends it to the rear brake chambers under control of the brake pedal via a small diameter control line.

Brian
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rwc
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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 01:36:02 PM »

I had planned on replacing this but I need to identify it first. It is made by Bendix and the numbers that I can find cast into top is T-294826-A and above that 45013 and above that 95. I went to bendix site and put in part number but nothing matched.
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rwc
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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 03:05:18 PM »

Nope it is also not an R12-DC relay valve. It is a R14 brake relay valve for the rear brakes.  Identified by Hausman bus Sales service department Dallas, Texas. My air schematic identifies it as r12. Thanks Rod
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« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 09:06:40 PM »

Go to the copy shop and get a big copy of the air schematic.

And then write on it when you change out an air component or hose.

Your goal is to work your way through and change 'em all out, then you know what is what.

And the coach will be reliable for a long time.

Those valves look horrible in the pics. Start budgeting a systematic replacement.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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rwc
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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2012, 06:28:01 AM »

I had an architect friend print schematic out on his plotter it is 24"X36". I will take your advice about labeling the valves That I replace. Thanks Rod
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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2012, 08:14:30 AM »

If you have spring brakes you can actually have bad brake chambers that appear to be a leaking valve.

Most brake valves aren't all that expensive if you buy remanufactured valves.  The problem I have with remanufactured valves is they paint over the label and everything so you no longer know what the part number is if you need to replace the valve in the future.  Some valves can have many different part numbers depending on crack pressure and such.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2012, 10:25:10 AM »

If you have spring brakes you can actually have bad brake chambers that appear to be a leaking valve.

Most brake valves aren't all that expensive if you buy remanufactured valves.  The problem I have with remanufactured valves is they paint over the label and everything so you no longer know what the part number is if you need to replace the valve in the future.  Some valves can have many different part numbers depending on crack pressure and such.

    Yeah, I *always* record part numbers off the box for all the brake parts I put on my bus.  I have a 'text file' in the "Brake" info folder just for this.
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2012, 08:26:51 PM »

RWC
Here is a few photos of what I have been working on for months to replace all my old DD3 brake system and the worthless valves that worked it, well worthless now days after so much neglect as you can see.  I offer this only as something for you to consider doing one day.
Gary


Above photo is of front left wheel well before clean up and installation of new brake system.


Above photo, after clean up, refabing front wheel well and installation of new air tanks and air lines etc.


Above photo is of left drive wheel air system if you can find it.  This is the tunnel between both drive wheels.


Above photo, another view looking down air system tunnel toward the engine



Above photo is of cleaned up framing on left driver wheel side


Above photo is of new brake valves, (SR-1, R-12, R-14) Valves and new connecting brake lines all labeled corresponding to a schematic I made up of actual location of all valves and where the lines run to.


Above photo of new left drive wheel well air brake system all totally enclosed for a lifetime of protection.  Aluminum cover for enclosure is removable on both sides of bus for inspection for air leaks etc.

Only thing left now is the installation of all new brake canisters and running the only lines that will be exposed to any weather which is about 2-3 ft. in length.  Everything else is enclosed.

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Gary
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2012, 08:52:21 PM »

Gary, what is the purpose of the SR-1 valve did you change to a dual air system ? and why a R-12 and a R-14 the R-14 should have been all you needed it is a anti compounding and quick release valve all in one,you are looking good there maybe soon huh

good luck
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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2012, 06:22:45 AM »

Gary, that looks awesome!  I don't have any need to replumb my brakes, but the underside could use painting in spots.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
Gary LaBombard
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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2012, 07:03:15 AM »

Belfort, thanks for the kind words.  Sure was discouraging to look at in the beginning as you can see in my photos above.

Cliff,
To answer your question I used a (six wheel truck) schematic from Bendex to redo all my air brake system.  I asked for help from nearly every one here in Greenville to give me advice on what and how to install my brake system complete and no one would commit to help me, (I think for legal reasons) so they will not be held responsible.  I even went to a local bendex store here, I bought most valves there by the way.  The young man there had no idea what in heck I was trying to do with such an old vehicle, he wanted me to switch over to disc brakes, good grief!!  So I called bendex and they advised me to use that drawing to redo my entire system, and here I am 4 months later and many, many dollars later.  Sad

I truly cannot answer your question cliff, I only hope that I did correct and before I give out all the information of what I did for others to consider I need to have the schematic that took me weeks to remake over checked over by someone who does know what they are doing, I want to be sure that my schematic is correct and ready to go for others to receive if wanted.  Wink 

It is difficult to do a complete system like I did, with no real knowledge of what in heck you are doing and it took many weeks for me to decide what to do and learn a darn ole CAD program, (Thanks to Jon Morris for teaching me) as well to make up my own schematic using a (six wheel truck) original bendix drawing to work from.  I am waiting on a friend to look at my schematic and check what I have done before I give it out to anyone.  I made my schematic  to be near the actual location of all valves and tanks so they will be easier to locate for me and anyone owning my bus after I am gone home.

I wish I had your knowledge Cliff, maybe I made a lot more work out of what I done but what else could I do.  It is done now, any changes that really need to be made can be as I now know where everything is.  Getting to it will be a bummer but at least it will not be dirty like the original photos above.

Anyhow with this normal long explanation I hope I did do alright Cliff for a complete new spring brake system.
Gary
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 07:07:51 AM by Gary LaBombard » Logged

Gary
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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2012, 07:44:12 AM »

Gary, do you have an on line photo album that you could post a link to? I, along with others, would enjoy looking at all the terrific work you have done on your bus. I can only imagine how much time and effort you have put into your project. I am in AWE of your workmanship. Give yourself a few pats on the back for me.

Thanks, Sam
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Gary LaBombard
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« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2012, 07:58:29 AM »

Sam,
Thanks for comment. I have been working on my bus 10 years now, even the termites in my set up blocks holding up the bus are anxious for this project to get over with. 

I do not see the same screen you see on photobucket.com but I will give you the link I have and it should bring you to all my albums to view on the right hand side menu of the screen you open.
  
http://s629.photobucket.com/albums/uu19/busconverter101/

If this link does not open for you then go to (photobucket.com) and put in (busconverter101) in the photobucket search window.  
Gary

« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 08:07:40 AM by Gary LaBombard » Logged

Gary
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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2012, 11:38:29 AM »

  (snip)  I used a (six wheel truck) schematic from Bendex to redo all my air brake system.  


      Gary, I had a very similar experience as yours regarding getting "professional" assistance -- except one retired Greyhound mechanic (actually foreman of GH's Charlotte bus garage his last 10 years there).  Unfortunately, he seemed to have forgotten something along the way ... he designed a system with wet, primary, secondary tanks "in series" with no protection between them; any leak anywhere would have taken resulted in the entire system leaking down.  His schematic for quick releases etc. was also "unconventional".

      I did exactly what you did with the Bendix standard schematic based on the SR-7 relay valve*, except I simplified the schematic to eliminate the additional axle (have a two-axle bus).  I asked the Bendix Tech Support people for their help and they made some minor adjustments (location of the one-way valves etc.).  I bought parts around this and installed them and ran the lines in accordance with their instructions.  I also signed up for the Bendix brake school (may be the best money I spent since I bought the bus) and went through my setup with the instructor -- we discussed some options in the system and he also approved my schematic.

    Here is my simplified Bendix diagram:

http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f60/oonrahnjay/Bus/?action=view&current=SR71Page.jpg   I found it easier to use two single one-way valves at the tank outputs to the S-port on the SR-7 valve; this means that the air pipe layout is a little different but the functionality is the same. 

    Of course, on the bus, I had to add a wet tank with the primary and secondary tanks fed from that; also, the accessory tank (with one way and "protection" valves) is taken off the wet tank, too. 

(*  The SR-7 valve is a relay and quick release valve for the rear service brakes; it requires a separate R-14 valve for anti-compounding for the parking/spring brakes).

      That's a beautiful installation job, Gary.  I'm going to go back and look to see if I can enclose my components like that.

BruceH   NC   USA

   
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2012, 12:26:13 PM »

Bruce,
I liked your schematic but of coarse mine is a little different with the bogie set up.  I wish I could publish the schematic I made but man I don't want to mislead anyone so I have to wait for someone with way, way more experience than I to approve it.

Real quickly,
1. R-12 vlv is feeding service brakes on bogie and drive wheels.

2. R-14 vlv is feeding spring brakes to drive wheels only.  I will have 3030 brake canisters.  The original (bendix six wheel truck drawing) was showing the R-14 feeding both the drive wheels and of coarse the six wheel truck had 3030 cans also on the bogie wheels or what ever they are called. So the R-14 also had to feed the second set of wheels in front of the drive wheels.  I eliminated that on my drawing and also in reality on my bus. 

3. The SR-1 vlv is fed from the PP-1 vlv when the brakes are set, this also connected to the back of the R-14 vlv and I believe activates the R-14 spring brake when the parking brakes are set. The SR-1 vlv is also going to my stop light switch to activate the stop lights.

4.  I have also installed one way check valves on all 4 of my air tanks  on the inlet end so that the air cannot bleed out that end, hopefully.  I also plan to install 4 gages on my dash, one for each tank to let me know at a glance which tank is leaking air if it is so I can quickly trouble shoot the area to remove my tire on that area of the air tank and remove the aluminum protection cover to trouble shoot the actual leak. With all new tubing and every line running through a bulkhead etc. is plumed through a bulkhead fitting which is real expensive when you consider I put in about 15 or more of.  But I hope I will not have to worry about, every. 

Man, I feel like I hijacked this post and did not mean to do that.  I hope that (RWC) will not mind my posting all this info here?

When I do get completely all done, I will post more photos of the finished product and any information I can to help others.  Be patient with me, it took over 4 months to get this far on just the new brake installation.  I am getting older now, almost 68 and getting tired as well.

I know, I know, another freaking long post by MR. Garylee.  Sorry!! 

Thanks again Bruce for your information.
Gary
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Gary
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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2012, 09:30:35 PM »

For what it is worth,

I'm impressed with the level of caution and care that is obviously being taken on this VERY serious topic.

Re-plumbing a coach brake system is not to be taken lightly, yet, it is not insurmountable for a busnut with good quality do-it-yourself skills.

Bendix is absolutely the go-to source for information and support.

It has been their corporate commitment for many, many years that knowledge should be freely shared.

Witness their extensive collection of materials, freely available. No one else comes close.

Busnuts, reward that continuing commitment with your comments and your dollars.

As we have witnessed too many times in the past, we are only a lawyer and an accountant away from silence...

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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rwc
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« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2012, 05:51:11 AM »

Gary I have been following along on your rebuild as you post new information. I am impressed with your dedication to this project and know that when you finish it will be a coach in better than mint condition.  Thanks for the advise and I have checked my brake chambers and they are in good condition. It is just the valves leaking.  Thanks Rod
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« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2012, 09:29:01 AM »

Gary, I haven't been able to access your photobucket pictures with either the link you posted or by going to (photobucket.com), they require a password.

Thanks, Sam
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« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2012, 01:22:21 PM »

Sam,
I am sorry you could not get on photobucket to see my albums.  I am not sure if you really need to be a member with a password for sure or not.  Maybe Paul Lawry can chime in here and let us know. Paul works with photobucket lots of times.  Did the link I sent you bring you in anyway to photobucket?  Maybe you will consider becoming a member, it is free and you can also post pictures of your project as well.  I will try to find out if you can get on without a password from Paul.

Rod,
When I took my entire air brake system apart I tried to salvage some of the brass fittings so I was careful in areas I could be.  But, I will tell you that maybe 90% of every connection took very little effort if any to unloosen them for removal.  I know I would of had trouble with air leaks all over like that, just for information for you to consider just tightening every  fitting you can find. I had several loose connections in the tunnel area and what a darn mess that was,  Be careful though, you will probably not like some of the things you will see under the dirt & grime.  Not every bus though is in as bad as shape as mine was, I had no darn idea what I got into until I got my bus home 10 years ago last April!!! Shocked Undecided Cry Embarrassed Sad Angry all these icons represent my feelings on April 4, 2002!!
Gary
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 01:32:36 PM by Gary LaBombard » Logged

Gary
Dreamscape
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2012, 03:17:25 PM »

Try this link. It worked for me but I'm signed in to my account. Let me know if a non photobucket user cannot see the album. It is the same link Gary originally posted, I couldn't get on at first. So not sure if it's because I signed in or not.

http://s629.photobucket.com/albums/uu19/busconverter101/
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 03:19:40 PM by Dreamscape » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2012, 06:07:19 PM »

Paul, I was able to view all of Gary's pictures on the photobucket site from the link you posted.

Thanks, Sam
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2012, 07:13:51 PM »

Sam and everyone else that tried to get on my photobucket link.  I am the culprit that caused the problem without realizing what I did was a nono.  I signed in on my photobucket account as the administrator a few days ago and low and behold I did not sign out thinking it was a PIA to sign in each time.  Well, now I know that I made it impossible for others to go on my account to see my photos and learned a lesson.  I will sign out each time I go in to make photos etc. and not be a PAI to you guys. 

Again, sorry, and thanks Paul for helping me realize this, I owe you.
Gary
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