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Author Topic: Starter Source  (Read 2186 times)
travlinman
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« on: October 25, 2012, 06:01:41 PM »

Hey Guys,

My bus is having a breakdown fest!   Now is is the starter.

So....I'm looking for a source.

I am in Bishop CA, can I just order one from NAPA or is there another place that is better?

I have  GM so the starter needs to turn counter.

Cheers,

TM
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Steve & Kristen Full time nomads since '06 - PD4106-674  8V71/V730
Len Silva
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2012, 06:17:01 AM »

I don't think you will have much luck with NAPA especially with a lefty.

If it were me, I would try to get the starter rebuilt locally.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2012, 06:30:07 AM »

Steve,I see you have a V730 get the right starter that one needs to be sealed or it will fill with oil and go out again fwiw 


good luck
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2012, 07:45:17 AM »


  Hi;
    Are you passing thru or do you live there?  If you live
    there and time is not an issue, you could have yours
    rebuilt.  If there in no one there to rebuild yours, let me
    know,  I can have it rebuilt here.  I live in Lancaster, just
    down the road a few hours.
    If time is an issue, then I don't think I can be of any help.
    Let me know if I can help.
                                    Merle.
                                    661/948-8125

 
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travlinman
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2012, 08:25:59 AM »

Thanks for the replys!

Len- That was exactly my concern last night.

Clifford - Could you expand on what is involved with sealing the starter, or point me to where I can read about it?

Merle - I'm going to check with the one local shop this morning, I'll give you a ring after I talk to them.

Thanks again guys, Kristen is tearing apart the bed now so I'm going to remove the cover this morning and get started.

Cheers

TM
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2012, 09:05:00 AM »

The next question is: Are you sure it's the starter?
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travlinman
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2012, 10:11:49 AM »

Len,

Just came out of the hole!! We are thinking the same things! Here is what I have ruled out so far-

- I have power to the start relay in the electrical compartment. That power then transfers to the start solenoid when the front or rear start is activated.

- I have power to the start solenoid at the big stud on the back.

My next step is to check all the grounds. They look good but I'm going to check anyway.

Kristen is heading to town to get a heavy duty remote start switch. We had to order this in and it came in today.

So that is where I am at..........Thoughts?

TM
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 10:14:51 AM by travlinman » Logged

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RJ
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2012, 10:18:00 AM »

Steve -

Pull the starter solenoid off, disassemble and clean it.  You might find the contacts burned inside.  Often, just flipping it over solves the problem.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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RJ Long
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luvrbus
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2012, 10:38:06 AM »

When you hit the start button you should have power to the small wire on the solenoid also if not it is a bad wire or relay fwiw making the start terminal hot the solenoid  should click,  

 Then you can jump the 2 large terminal on the solenoid if the starter spins jumping those 2 without engaging your starter is good if it doesn't the starter is bad ,just be real careful you are dealing with very high amps on those 2 terminals its not a rocket science   

I hope it is just a relay that 60 lb starter is a bitch to remove from that little hole  
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 10:56:39 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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travlinman
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2012, 12:52:56 PM »

OK here are the results of this mornings diagnostics...

- Pulled all grounds and positive cables and cleaned. These were all in good shape except the engine ground point which was covered in green paint on the block side.

- Tested the small wire from the start relay to the solenoid. This wire is in good shape and is hot when the key is turned to start.

- When turning the key to start the solenoid does NOT click.

- Jumped the two big studs on the starter solenoid, and NOTHING!

After spending the morning lying on the transmission my brain is a bit sideways so what do you guys think? Bad starter, bad solenoid or both??

RJ - I have not pulled the solenoid yet, as you can tell I'm trying to do everything else first!

Clifford - Thanks Again

Thanks

TM

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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2012, 01:07:50 PM »

With neither doing anything the famous words for GM owners I have a ground problem, do you have a ground cable from the end of the starter to the bulk head ? Start from the batteries and work your way to the starter

 I would take a wild guess somebody over time has spliced the cable in some place and that is where the problem will be or if you have the battery terminals that bolt to the cable

good luck    
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 01:23:35 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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travlinman
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2012, 01:27:08 PM »

Clifford -

Yes there is a ground cable that run from the back of the starter to a bolt that comes through the bulkhead. On this same bolt is the cable that runs to the engine block. There is also a hanger for the transmission cooler line.

First pic is the bolt on the bulkhead with the starter ground on the outside.
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travlinman
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2012, 01:28:38 PM »

Here is the ground cable at the engine block...
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travlinman
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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2012, 01:31:09 PM »

And here is the back of the starter note that my test leads are still attached.

Check 'em out let me know what you think!

Thanks

TM
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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2012, 01:34:46 PM »

What is each battery's voltage?

Maybe not enough power to make it happen?

frustrating to be sure!

happy coaching!
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travlinman
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« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2012, 02:07:28 PM »

Buswarrior -

Batteries are at 12.7 right now, they get trickle charged from my solar system. When the sun is out of course!

I'm not frustrated..yet. More fascinated by the mystery of this. My starter is a year and a half old and has been working fine. I also try to be nice to it by preheating my engine when it is cold and not cranking on it for to long. Clifford has me wondering about ground now...

TM
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2012, 03:21:17 PM »

Hi Steve,
When we had a similar problem with our 4106 starter I removed the cap on the starter housing, opposite the solenoid, and used a broomstick to manually engage the solenoid and starter drive gear into the flywheel ring gear. The engine started right up and I never had that problem again as long as I owned the bus. That's assuming you have 12 Volts at the large bolt on the starter solenoid and that all the connections are tight. Another time when the solenoid would engage, but the starter wouldn't turn, I tightened the nuts on the copper strap between the solenoid and the large post on the starter housing. The engine started right up. Check all of the nuts on the cable connections to be sure they are tight.

The picture of the bolt through the bulkhead with the transmission hose bracket on it should have the cables rearranged so the hose bracket is on the outside of both cables so the painted bracket isn't between the two cables. While you have the bracket and cables off clean the bulkhead surface too. When you reassemble the cables and bracket put some anti-sieze compound on the bulkhead, bolt, and cable ends before reassembly. I use anti-sieze compound on all battery cable connections and never have corrosion problems again.

Good luck, and I hope you find a simple solution. Sam
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2012, 04:32:49 PM »

 oops
good luck
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 04:36:02 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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robertglines1
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2012, 05:56:57 PM »

loose  starter?   wouldn't be first one =poor ground
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 07:35:53 AM by robertglines1 » Logged

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travlinman
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2012, 06:21:29 PM »

Sam4106- I cleaned up that ground connection...still no joy. Tried pushing on the cap and the it would not budge. I'm thinking that may be a clue.

RJ - I got one bolt shy of pulling the solenoid before I ran out of day light.

Clifford - What is oops?

More fun tomorrow for me........

Cheers

TM
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eagle19952
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2012, 09:50:40 PM »

Are you the person who installed all of your cable ends ?
are they soldered or crimped ?
I would grab ahold of each cable and pull and twist with all or 1/2 my mite and see if they or one separated...they should be able to withstand  all of that.
I know to some people tape and heat shrink is nice but I do not like it because it can hide corrosion,poor crimps, and poor solder joints.
I am not a fan of solder near battery cables,I like crimps.
Do you have access to a PROPER crimp tool? if so I would do them all over just for  piece of mind if someone else made them up.
does the relay send juice to the two small wires that activate the starter solenoid in behind ?

If it was me i would charge my batteries to 13.2
I would attach a pair of 3 or 4 inch vice grips to each 3/4 nut on the solenoid (after I had disconnected the grounds on my Batteries) (you of course will reconnect the batteries grounds after you install the vicegrips)
Remove your rings too.watches etc.
Then i would jumper the main hot to the stud that feeds the offset L clip connecting the sol to strtr. If it spins whines like a jet then the starter motor is probably good.
then take a hot wire and feed the key wires on the solenoid or jumper from the main batt sol wire by touching that small stud FIRST and then to the batt wire <vicegrip> on the solenoid,(this will avoid arcing the smallstud and put the arc on the sacrificial VICEGRIPS.) this should prove or rule out the solenoid.
Bet you find a bad ground.
One more thing, I am sure you would notice already...the starter doesn't smell burnt ?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 10:15:00 PM by eagle19952 » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2012, 11:54:10 AM »

Steve, I take it you have checked all of the shutdown system ?
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Rick 74 MC-8
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2012, 11:54:58 AM »

The few years back I had a problem with  rebuilt starter. I found the fork that operates the Bendix drive Had separated locking the whole thing up. I Removed the fork from an old starter Cast not stamped steel. Install It and haven't had a problem sense. Goes to show there is a difference in rebuilders.
                                Rick 74 MC-8
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travlinman
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« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2012, 12:40:42 PM »

OK after a run for more tools......yes I am the guy that travels with the minimum......here is the solenoid. It smells burnt and looks pretty ugly. This is the first part that I have found that is suspect. I am on the steep learning curve as usual so don't be shy about speaking up!

Eagle -All my cables are solid.  I believe my remote start switch replicated what you described in your second paragraph.

Clifford - Have not checked the shutdown system yet. Given that I have power to the hot wire on the top of the solenoid when the key is turned, I thought I was in the clear.

TM
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 12:55:59 PM by travlinman » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2012, 12:41:37 PM »

One more......
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Steve & Kristen Full time nomads since '06 - PD4106-674  8V71/V730
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« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2012, 08:07:46 PM »

I must have missed it somewhere.  Did the starter spin when jumped?
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travlinman
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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2012, 09:21:45 PM »

Lin,

The starter did nothing when I jumped it, it just sat there quietly. No click no spin.

TM
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Lin
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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2012, 10:51:02 PM »

Although there are a lot of pieces and wires between the starter switch and the starter, when you get there it is just an electric motor.  If it gets electricity it should run.  If you are jumping it correctly and it does not spin, it had a problem.
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« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2012, 07:59:58 AM »

Lin,

Thanks, that is exactly what I am thinking. However I am having a hell of a time getting the thing out. The last installer used standard bolts and there is no way to get a socket on them as the clearance is very tight back there. I'm off to town for more tools this morning and we shall see if I am successful. I already searched the owens valley for a 15/16 crowfoot wrench to no avail. Bummer.

TM
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« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2012, 08:13:57 AM »

Before removing the starter jump it off your car red cable to the big lug , black to the ground if it doesn't spin i then remove the starter fwiw your solenoid disk does not look all that bad it won't damage the car s system
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« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2012, 09:12:27 AM »

Clifford

Well I do believe the patient is ofically dead. Tried the jump method and nothing.

TM
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Steve & Kristen Full time nomads since '06 - PD4106-674  8V71/V730
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« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2012, 09:21:14 AM »

Sounds like it Steve if that method didn't work good luck on removing that heavy sucker through the hole,can you hold and lift  60 lbs with 1 hand lol

good luck
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« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2012, 09:28:42 AM »

When changing mine on the 5a, it was quite a task and it had to come down.  Getting it back up was even more fun.  I think that I ended up using straps and levers to do it.  Maybe you have room to rig some sort of frame and pulley over it or the lift.
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« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2012, 10:04:03 AM »

Lin, a 5 is a cake walk compared to a GM I think you are supposed pull the engine for those not really but it is a bear to change in a converted GM coach
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« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2012, 10:12:01 AM »

Clifford, I have not seen it on a GM but assumed it was worse.  I was just wondering if it was possible to rig something that would make it less necessary to rely on muscle alone.
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« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2012, 10:23:34 AM »

I don't how he would do it the thing is on the back of the engine up high with the tilted engine against the rear bulk head, they give you a hole to remove it from but not much room to get to hole you being thin you could probably get between the bulk head and the engine it doesn't work for me lol
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