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Author Topic: propane injection ups and downs?  (Read 2972 times)
sledhead
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« on: November 07, 2012, 08:10:11 AM »

Ok probably stirring up the pot . I installed a propane injection unit on my 6v92ta,total cost about $1100. Has been in for 1 year. You can turn it on or off at any time from the drivers seat.My son and I did a test on a controlled route with a hill in the test. Each time I gained an extra gear and lost 10 seconds off the route test with the propane on. We did the test 3 times on and 3 times off, the same each time.It has given me the extra power needed for the up hill runs.I turn it off when not in the hills.I have the regulator set low on the amount of propane injected. The only difference I have noticed is I use a little less oil on a long run.As far as long term use time will tell. At present we only put on about 8-10 k a year.                          dave       
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
Utahclaimjumper
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« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2012, 08:32:55 AM »

Your preaching to the choir Dave,, its well known that propane "mixing" (its not injected) works well for turboed and "A" timed engines. Propane is even more effective on 4 stroke diesel engines than 2 strokes..>>>Dan
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Utahclaimjumper 
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« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2012, 08:49:26 AM »

This is something I have always had an interest in although I do not have a turbo.  Many reports seem to say it helps a natural engine, just not quite as much.  There are those that create their own systems using a steady flow of propane.  I have also heard about systems that can regulate the propane flow according to the DD blower, which would be similar to the turbo system.
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« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2012, 09:08:27 AM »

The parts I don't like about the propane injection for the amount of injected propane the same amount of air is displaced and then the water content bothers me

good luck
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2012, 09:58:40 AM »

 You will probably find more water vapor in despensed diesel fuel than propane vapor. Internal combustion averages between 14/17 to 1 for efficient combustion,, thats a lot of air to work with, particularly under blower pressure.>>>Dan
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Utahclaimjumper 
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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2012, 07:53:02 PM »

Where  can you get one of the propane kits
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2012, 09:50:51 PM »

And can I put a kit on my 85 Mercedes SDL? That would be amazing :-)
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Scott Bennett
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2012, 03:31:40 AM »

Cliff, would the minor amount of water possibly act as a cleaner/steam washer? I've heard of peeps injecting water to keep things sparkly in there. I green when it comes to diesel....just curious


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Scott & Heather
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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2012, 03:47:37 AM »

With a diesel,, that would be an excellent way to ruin your injectors quickly.>>>Dan
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 06:10:52 AM by Utahclaimjumper » Logged

Utahclaimjumper 
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sledhead
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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2012, 04:21:35 AM »

Deisel performance products $749.00            thanks dave
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2012, 04:50:58 AM »

Scott I never saw a water injector but I do spray a about a qt of water running a DD @1/2 throttle sometimes if they have a carbon knock and it will stop the knock.

Years back on gasoline engines running leaded gas you could do the same and it would remove buildup without removing the head that practice was common on the Onan generators even at dealers fwiw

 As far as a propane setup on a 2 stroke the way it is design and the air at over 200 degrees under the  aftercooler on turbo engine I will wait and see
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 05:01:44 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2012, 07:01:36 AM »


  If you use 2-Ethyl-Hexyl-Nitrate in you fuel, you will see and increase in you power, Diesel sound (knocking)

  will no longer be there,less smoke. Ratio is 1 qt to 112 gal. will increase cetane 6 numbers. The higher the

  cetane rating of the fuel the better fuel mileage.


   Steve 5B.......


 
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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2012, 10:02:17 AM »

    If you use 2-Ethyl-Hexyl-Nitrate in you fuel, you will see and increase in you power, Diesel sound (knocking)

  will no longer be there,less smoke. Ratio is 1 qt to 112 gal. will increase cetane 6 numbers. The higher the

  cetane rating of the fuel the better fuel mileage.

   Steve 5B.......

    Is this "Power Service - Diesel Kleen" (silver bottle summer, more cetane boost; white bottle winter, less cetane boost but anti-gel and water removal)?
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
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« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2012, 10:30:35 AM »

All the ethanol gas has EthylHexylNitrate in the blend why not just use a gal of gas it has been done for years by truckers
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« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 10:36:06 AM »

  All the ethanol gas has EthylHexylNitrate in the blend why not just use a gal of gas it has been done for years by truckers 

     Bottle of "Power Service" = $16.99/ at dah Waw*Mott; $19.99 at truck stops.   Gallon of gas:  $3.50.  Sounds like a good plan to me.  How much gas to you need to buy to get enough EHN to do any good?
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
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« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 10:47:35 AM »

I always heard 1 gal of gasoline to 40 gals of fuel Bruce, I have no idea if works or not but the truckers believe it does in the winter time in WY Fwiw  

Power Service will freeze I had a bottle freeze one time in the back of my pickup so I never bought anymore of the stuff
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 04:23:58 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2012, 11:13:59 AM »

Quote from: luvrbus
All the ethanol gas has EthylHexylNitrate in the blend why not just use a gal of gas it has been done for years by truckers

Quote from: Oonrahnjay
     Bottle of "Power Service" = $16.99/ at dah Waw*Mott; $19.99 at truck stops.   Gallon of gas:  $3.50.  Sounds like a good plan to me.  How much gas to you need to buy to get enough EHN to do any good?

Quote from: luvrbus
I always heard 1 gal of gasoline to 40 gals of fuel Bruce, I have no idea if works or not but the truckers believe it does in the winter time in WY Fwiw 

Power Service will freeze I had a bottle freeze one time in the back of my pickup so I never bought anymore of the stuff

I was made a believer up Noth one winter when the truck I was driving was try'n to "gel up" on me and an "old timer" grabbed a gas can and dumped about 5 gallons of gasoline in my tank.

Less than 2 minutes later the truck was idling smooth as silk again!

FWIW I haven't used any in years! I don't get up "Noth" much anymore an the tanks in our Setra's are well protected from the freezing temps. The Dina on the other hand is a different story and we keep FUEL treatment in the fuel doot next to the tank most of the time just in case a driver gets caught up in cold conditions unexpectedly! (it has a habit of acting sluggish anything below 40*)
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2012, 12:08:09 PM »

I have spent some time looking into propane and water/meth injection systems on my 8V71N.  I installed a water/meth injection system in my One Lap race car was floored at the results.  Without doubt, this system will help every turbocharged engine, gas or diesel, period.  I use regular windshield washer fluid, it's 20% methanol the rest water.  Straight water isn't nearly as effective as methanol, so the washfluid is a cheap compromise.

Propane will help every diesel as well, NA or turbo.  The old timer that helped me set up my new 8V71 recommended the best over the road economy was using "smoke sticks and propane"!  To clarify, he meant N70s, advanced timing, and propane injection that comes on at full throttle.   He claims to have built hundreds of them, using every combination of injectors and timing, and that setup got the drivers the best economy and the most power.  I chickened out because I didn't want to rely on using propane all the time. I went with N65s and A timing with the plan to use propane in the hills.  I never got to the propane install, I'm still working on heat control during the summer months. 

Last week I was looking at propane systems on EBay.  $400 and up for basic systems.  Good systems are around $1500. 

It's on my list so Ill be doing it eventually.  Certainly after I install a 5" in/out muffler.

Sorry for any typos
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OneLapper
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sledhead
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« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2012, 03:25:37 PM »

I spent $9000.00 on out of frame full rebuild , less oil use and no more leaks .Can't tell if there was more power! I keep telling myself it must have. With the propane I can see the difference under load .I set it to start at about 14 lbs boost . Time will tell if it will do any damage to the engine.      jmo         dave
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
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« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2012, 03:51:58 PM »

What is the max boost pressure on your 6v92 ? at 14 lbs the engine is starting to work if everything is according to Hoyle seems low to start a injection, my friend I mention running propane doesn't start his till around 19lbs

good luck
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 04:01:12 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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sledhead
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« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2012, 03:57:20 PM »

As set from the dealer 10 lbs to start . max boost 23-24 lbs under load.   dave
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
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« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2012, 04:07:22 PM »

You have any idea what cams are in your engine the 23 lbs max is in the ball park for the 6v92 some a little more some a little less
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« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2012, 04:17:17 PM »

I spent $9000.00 on out of frame full rebuild , less oil use and no more leaks .Can't tell if there was more power! I keep telling myself it must have. With the propane I can see the difference under load .I set it to start at about 14 lbs boost . Time will tell if it will do any damage to the engine.      jmo         dave

Finally someone worries about the consequenses!  Anytime you introduce something into your engine to give it more "boost" you are putting more stress on the engine; pistons, rings, valves, bearings.  Detroit Diesel spent many years designing an engine that would be reliable and give a good service life with stock specifications.  If you don't care how long you engine lasts then go for the propane/water or waterever injection system you can buy.

It is no secret you can get massive horsepower out of a Detroit 2-stroke, i.e. tractor pulls, raceboats, and even regular boats.  But the bill comes early when a rebuild is needed.  

--Geoff

Happy with 350 HP 6V92TA
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« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2012, 04:22:30 PM »

At least here in California, most windshield washing fluid is or already has been reformulated to not use methanol. Why-kids are buying it to drink! So now, even with the new reformulated windshield washing fluid, you have to be over 18 to buy it (course that's not a problem for most of us!).  What will kids think of next?  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2012, 04:29:58 PM »

 Leid diesel service newville PA rebuilt it in 2010 .They are a dd dealer so not sure on internal parts . I did replace my ddec 2 computer and they set it up to 330 hp.I tried to have it up to 350 hp but they would not. Cry  I had some black smoke at first and had to drive it to there shop in PA .They could not find the problem at first so they pulled the eng. out to put on a dino found out the turbo was bad ,replaced it at no charge for any thing ,new anti freeze . Not use to that .I would recommend them .great job        dave
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« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2012, 04:40:50 PM »

They had to pull the engine out and put it on a Dyno to figure out you had a bad turbo?Huh
Sorry, they might have cut you deal on the bill but it doesn't sound like they know what they are doing.

--Geoff


Leid diesel service newville PA rebuilt it in 2010 .They are a dd dealer so not sure on internal parts . I did replace my ddec 2 computer and they set it up to 330 hp.I tried to have it up to 350 hp but they would not. Cry  I had some black smoke at first and had to drive it to there shop in PA .They could not find the problem at first so they pulled the eng. out to put on a dino found out the turbo was bad ,replaced it at no charge for any thing ,new anti freeze . Not use to that .I would recommend them .great job        dave
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Geoff
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sledhead
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« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2012, 04:50:18 PM »

The problem would only show up under load up a hill .They are simple old school guys      ( horse,buggy  mennonites )            dave
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 04:53:39 PM by sledhead » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2012, 05:05:14 PM »

If you are ever in Saxonburg Pa the guy at Pittsburgh Power Bruce will turn the 6v92 DDEC up to 400 hp if that is what you want 350 or 400 hp doesn't hurt those engines in a bus if you have the cooling capacity to handle the hp
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« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2012, 11:49:35 PM »

  I always heard 1 gal of gasoline to 40 gals of fuel Bruce, I have no idea if works or not but the truckers believe it does in the winter time in WY Fwiw  

Power Service will freeze I had a bottle freeze one time in the back of my pickup so I never bought anymore of the stuff 

      Yeah, a bottle of Power Service is supposed to be 'good for 250 gallons' but the temperature it goes down to depends on how much you use.  Looks about a wash.  1 gallon for 40 is a 2 1/2% concentration of gas - not sure how much that relates to for Power Service concentration.

      Also, gasoline (being a "spirit" in refining terms rather than an oil) will prevent diesel (which, of course, is an oil) from gelling, even if it doesn't have EHN in it but I'm not sure how much it takes without the additive.

      Yeah, Power Service will freeze or gel up.  It's like salt - salt is "frozen" at 150 degrees but if you put it in water, the freezing point of water will drop from 32 degrees to down near zero (depending on concentration of salt in the water).  But when Power Service (and I assume other diesel additives - I'm pretty sure "Fuel Power" is the same chemical, not sure about Lucas) is added to diesel, it will reduce gelling down to 30-40 degrees.

      There is some reference group (may be something "Petroleum Retailers Council" but also may be API) that publishes "%-age below normal temps" for localities in the US and Canada for October through April.  Diesel fuel is supposed to be "winterized" from the pump to be safe at pretty much any expected temperature.  But it's specific, so don't fuel up in San Diego and drive to Yellowstone in January without filling up with local-winterized fuel when you get where it gets cold.

      Bryce, 40's is supposed to be OK for fuel, even "unwinterized". Could you be having a problem like a sensor telling the engine ECM that the engine is hotter or colder than it is and the fuel injection is being mis-set?  Obviously, something is going on but it might not be the fuel gelling.

OK, enough petroleum nerdness for now,  Bruce H   NC   USA
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
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« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2012, 04:38:01 AM »

What parts and cost to bump up hp to 350 or 400 ?      thanks dave
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« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2012, 06:26:40 AM »

Yours being 330 hp it will have the 4775 injectors already and it should have 7512 turbo all it takes is programing 300 bucks at Pittsburgh Power if you have the 7511 turbo the housing will need to be changed to reach 400 hp 

Watch Bruce he likes HP you may leave there with a 500 hp 6V92 lol just kidding


good luck
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« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2012, 08:16:18 AM »

There are a lot of DD shops that won't turn up the 6V92TA DDEC power past 270 if you have a transit code in your DDEC.  You have to fool the program and most shops won't do it because they are scared of fines from the EPA. 


Yours being 330 hp it will have the 4775 injectors already and it should have 7512 turbo all it takes is programing 300 bucks at Pittsburgh Power if you have the 7511 turbo the housing will need to be changed to reach 400 hp 

Watch Bruce he likes HP you may leave there with a 500 hp 6V92 lol just kidding


good luck
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« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2012, 08:31:12 AM »

About any shop will up a DDEC 11 even Williams in Phoenix DD released the strangle hold on the DDEC 11 in 2002, CARB in Ca is different story   

If he lived close to me I would not have a problem turning him to 400 hp with a DDEC 11 but I will not touch a V or above,  there's not much you can do with those anyway unless it is a offroad ECM
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« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2012, 09:16:08 AM »

Has anyone ever ran the propane injection with an EGT gage?  I would be interested in what EGT's were before and after on a hill climb.
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« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2012, 09:29:25 AM »

It goes up around 150 degrees on my friends bus that part I forgot about another thing I don't like about the propane but I guess if you regulated the amount it would drop

I don't know but I do know we had to remove the wet wrapping from his manifolds as I ran out of manifolds from him breaking his lol 850 +or- a few degrees is the bench mark for 6v92 @1800 to 2100 rpm getting above 1000 degrees not to good me I would not use it without a EGT gauge jmo 

good luck  
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 09:47:52 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2012, 11:11:16 AM »

Road trip!    Cliff only 40 hr drive from here and its starting to get cold out. see ya soon .(in my dreams maybe next year )                    thanks      dave
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
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