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Author Topic: propane injection ups and downs?  (Read 2445 times)
luvrbus
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« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 10:47:35 AM »

I always heard 1 gal of gasoline to 40 gals of fuel Bruce, I have no idea if works or not but the truckers believe it does in the winter time in WY Fwiw  

Power Service will freeze I had a bottle freeze one time in the back of my pickup so I never bought anymore of the stuff
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 04:23:58 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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B_K
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« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2012, 11:13:59 AM »

Quote from: luvrbus
All the ethanol gas has EthylHexylNitrate in the blend why not just use a gal of gas it has been done for years by truckers

Quote from: Oonrahnjay
     Bottle of "Power Service" = $16.99/ at dah Waw*Mott; $19.99 at truck stops.   Gallon of gas:  $3.50.  Sounds like a good plan to me.  How much gas to you need to buy to get enough EHN to do any good?

Quote from: luvrbus
I always heard 1 gal of gasoline to 40 gals of fuel Bruce, I have no idea if works or not but the truckers believe it does in the winter time in WY Fwiw 

Power Service will freeze I had a bottle freeze one time in the back of my pickup so I never bought anymore of the stuff

I was made a believer up Noth one winter when the truck I was driving was try'n to "gel up" on me and an "old timer" grabbed a gas can and dumped about 5 gallons of gasoline in my tank.

Less than 2 minutes later the truck was idling smooth as silk again!

FWIW I haven't used any in years! I don't get up "Noth" much anymore an the tanks in our Setra's are well protected from the freezing temps. The Dina on the other hand is a different story and we keep FUEL treatment in the fuel doot next to the tank most of the time just in case a driver gets caught up in cold conditions unexpectedly! (it has a habit of acting sluggish anything below 40*)
Grin  BK  Grin
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OneLapper
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« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2012, 12:08:09 PM »

I have spent some time looking into propane and water/meth injection systems on my 8V71N.  I installed a water/meth injection system in my One Lap race car was floored at the results.  Without doubt, this system will help every turbocharged engine, gas or diesel, period.  I use regular windshield washer fluid, it's 20% methanol the rest water.  Straight water isn't nearly as effective as methanol, so the washfluid is a cheap compromise.

Propane will help every diesel as well, NA or turbo.  The old timer that helped me set up my new 8V71 recommended the best over the road economy was using "smoke sticks and propane"!  To clarify, he meant N70s, advanced timing, and propane injection that comes on at full throttle.   He claims to have built hundreds of them, using every combination of injectors and timing, and that setup got the drivers the best economy and the most power.  I chickened out because I didn't want to rely on using propane all the time. I went with N65s and A timing with the plan to use propane in the hills.  I never got to the propane install, I'm still working on heat control during the summer months. 

Last week I was looking at propane systems on EBay.  $400 and up for basic systems.  Good systems are around $1500. 

It's on my list so Ill be doing it eventually.  Certainly after I install a 5" in/out muffler.

Sorry for any typos
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OneLapper
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sledhead
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« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2012, 03:25:37 PM »

I spent $9000.00 on out of frame full rebuild , less oil use and no more leaks .Can't tell if there was more power! I keep telling myself it must have. With the propane I can see the difference under load .I set it to start at about 14 lbs boost . Time will tell if it will do any damage to the engine.      jmo         dave
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
luvrbus
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« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2012, 03:51:58 PM »

What is the max boost pressure on your 6v92 ? at 14 lbs the engine is starting to work if everything is according to Hoyle seems low to start a injection, my friend I mention running propane doesn't start his till around 19lbs

good luck
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 04:01:12 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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sledhead
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« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2012, 03:57:20 PM »

As set from the dealer 10 lbs to start . max boost 23-24 lbs under load.   dave
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
luvrbus
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« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2012, 04:07:22 PM »

You have any idea what cams are in your engine the 23 lbs max is in the ball park for the 6v92 some a little more some a little less
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Geoff
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« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2012, 04:17:17 PM »

I spent $9000.00 on out of frame full rebuild , less oil use and no more leaks .Can't tell if there was more power! I keep telling myself it must have. With the propane I can see the difference under load .I set it to start at about 14 lbs boost . Time will tell if it will do any damage to the engine.      jmo         dave

Finally someone worries about the consequenses!  Anytime you introduce something into your engine to give it more "boost" you are putting more stress on the engine; pistons, rings, valves, bearings.  Detroit Diesel spent many years designing an engine that would be reliable and give a good service life with stock specifications.  If you don't care how long you engine lasts then go for the propane/water or waterever injection system you can buy.

It is no secret you can get massive horsepower out of a Detroit 2-stroke, i.e. tractor pulls, raceboats, and even regular boats.  But the bill comes early when a rebuild is needed.  

--Geoff

Happy with 350 HP 6V92TA
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Geoff
'82 RTS AZ
TomC
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« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2012, 04:22:30 PM »

At least here in California, most windshield washing fluid is or already has been reformulated to not use methanol. Why-kids are buying it to drink! So now, even with the new reformulated windshield washing fluid, you have to be over 18 to buy it (course that's not a problem for most of us!).  What will kids think of next?  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
sledhead
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« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2012, 04:29:58 PM »

 Leid diesel service newville PA rebuilt it in 2010 .They are a dd dealer so not sure on internal parts . I did replace my ddec 2 computer and they set it up to 330 hp.I tried to have it up to 350 hp but they would not. Cry  I had some black smoke at first and had to drive it to there shop in PA .They could not find the problem at first so they pulled the eng. out to put on a dino found out the turbo was bad ,replaced it at no charge for any thing ,new anti freeze . Not use to that .I would recommend them .great job        dave
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
Geoff
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« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2012, 04:40:50 PM »

They had to pull the engine out and put it on a Dyno to figure out you had a bad turbo?Huh
Sorry, they might have cut you deal on the bill but it doesn't sound like they know what they are doing.

--Geoff


Leid diesel service newville PA rebuilt it in 2010 .They are a dd dealer so not sure on internal parts . I did replace my ddec 2 computer and they set it up to 330 hp.I tried to have it up to 350 hp but they would not. Cry  I had some black smoke at first and had to drive it to there shop in PA .They could not find the problem at first so they pulled the eng. out to put on a dino found out the turbo was bad ,replaced it at no charge for any thing ,new anti freeze . Not use to that .I would recommend them .great job        dave
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Geoff
'82 RTS AZ
sledhead
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« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2012, 04:50:18 PM »

The problem would only show up under load up a hill .They are simple old school guys      ( horse,buggy  mennonites )            dave
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 04:53:39 PM by sledhead » Logged

1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
luvrbus
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« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2012, 05:05:14 PM »

If you are ever in Saxonburg Pa the guy at Pittsburgh Power Bruce will turn the 6v92 DDEC up to 400 hp if that is what you want 350 or 400 hp doesn't hurt those engines in a bus if you have the cooling capacity to handle the hp
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Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2012, 11:49:35 PM »

  I always heard 1 gal of gasoline to 40 gals of fuel Bruce, I have no idea if works or not but the truckers believe it does in the winter time in WY Fwiw  

Power Service will freeze I had a bottle freeze one time in the back of my pickup so I never bought anymore of the stuff 

      Yeah, a bottle of Power Service is supposed to be 'good for 250 gallons' but the temperature it goes down to depends on how much you use.  Looks about a wash.  1 gallon for 40 is a 2 1/2% concentration of gas - not sure how much that relates to for Power Service concentration.

      Also, gasoline (being a "spirit" in refining terms rather than an oil) will prevent diesel (which, of course, is an oil) from gelling, even if it doesn't have EHN in it but I'm not sure how much it takes without the additive.

      Yeah, Power Service will freeze or gel up.  It's like salt - salt is "frozen" at 150 degrees but if you put it in water, the freezing point of water will drop from 32 degrees to down near zero (depending on concentration of salt in the water).  But when Power Service (and I assume other diesel additives - I'm pretty sure "Fuel Power" is the same chemical, not sure about Lucas) is added to diesel, it will reduce gelling down to 30-40 degrees.

      There is some reference group (may be something "Petroleum Retailers Council" but also may be API) that publishes "%-age below normal temps" for localities in the US and Canada for October through April.  Diesel fuel is supposed to be "winterized" from the pump to be safe at pretty much any expected temperature.  But it's specific, so don't fuel up in San Diego and drive to Yellowstone in January without filling up with local-winterized fuel when you get where it gets cold.

      Bryce, 40's is supposed to be OK for fuel, even "unwinterized". Could you be having a problem like a sensor telling the engine ECM that the engine is hotter or colder than it is and the fuel injection is being mis-set?  Obviously, something is going on but it might not be the fuel gelling.

OK, enough petroleum nerdness for now,  Bruce H   NC   USA
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

(New Email -- brucebearnc@ (theGoogle gmail place) .com)
sledhead
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« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2012, 04:38:01 AM »

What parts and cost to bump up hp to 350 or 400 ?      thanks dave
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
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