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Author Topic: The Eagle (6v92TA) 10S Challenge - Help!  (Read 3367 times)
Seangie
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« on: December 23, 2012, 04:24:30 PM »

Happy Holidays All!

I hope all you crazy bus nuts keep safe on your journeys this Holiday season.  And stay warm down in Arcadia (or wherever else you may be).

I am having some engine problems and I was hoping to challenge you this Holiday Season as I have no clue as to what it is although...I am betting on a bad turbo.  I got some video of the start today and hopefully you will all be very quick to a conclusion (that costs pennies Smiley )

Here is the video -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F72-1HJ1kfc

Here is what is happening in the video - It was a cool day - Down to 32 last night and 55 or so was the high.  Bus sits in the sun all day.  I click on the batteries in the back, turn on the start switch and she starts right up no problems.  After about a minute or so...just about the time the engine (turbo?) kicks in it sputters and slowly grinds to a halt.  If I try to restart right away it won't start up again.  Just sputter and smokes like it wants to but no dice.  You'll see me running into the bus towards the end of the video as I wasn't sure if I left the key in the "ON" position (a common thing for me to forget)

Here is how I got to this point -

Over the past week, I dropped all the fluids (as much as I could) from the cooling system (22 gallons give or take a spill) pulled the 170 degree thermostats put in 180's.  Filled back up with 100% water.  Drove the bus for about 1.5 hours.  It started right up, blew quite a bit of smoke for about a minute (haven't run since september) and then the smoke cleared up and it ran great.  Drove it for about 1.5 hours.  Took temps (laser) of the tires/wheels (85 hubs, 95-100 tires), Thermostat blocks (180), Turbo (450-500) Engine Block (185). 

Next Day Dropped all the water I could (cold engine about 16 gallons).  Replaced both hoses on the bottom of the water pump as they didn't look too good.  This required removing the housing pipe going into the transmission cooler.  I pulled that connection to the transmission cooler, cleaned it up, painted it and put it back on with a new gasket.  Tightened up the hose clamps and double checked everything was tight.  Replaced the water that I dropped with Anti Freeze/water mix at the rate of about 2 gallons of Anti Freeze to 1 Gallon of water.  Ended up with 10 gallons of Antifreeze and 6 Gallons of water (remember there was still about 6 gallons of water in the engine) .  Started up the bus and it started right up but right when it gets to the point where the smoke clears up and engine kicks in, it sputters and dies and wont restart.  I try again, no restart.  Its a cold evening about 40 degrees.  So I plug in the block heater for about 45 minutes.  I try starting it up again about an hour later.  It starts like normal and runs for about a minute and then sputters to a halt and wont restart.

I have tried starting 3 times now and figured I need to figure out what is wrong before I screw up anything else.

Thanks all for your help on this holiday.

-Sean
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2012, 04:53:39 PM »

Do you have a safety system kicking in and killing the engine?  Did you knock a wire off a sensor?  I don't see how this could be the turbo as the turbo starts spinning as exhaust starts flowing.  It appears the engine is still idling when it dies so I doubt the turbo.  The turbo isn't going to change a minute in.
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2012, 05:00:48 PM »

Look somewhere besides the turbo they run with out turbo boost it will make a bunch of black or white smoke with a bad turbo sounds like ice in the filters or the skinner valve
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 05:03:47 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2012, 05:01:47 PM »

 tHE FUEL IS BEING SHUT OFF OR ITS RUNNING OUT OF FUEL,, Its like the air is building up and shutting down the engine, check the forward controls and switches. I would automaticaly pull the filters and check or replace.>>>Dan
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 05:03:47 PM by Utahclaimjumper » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2012, 05:19:47 PM »

Two thoughts come to me,

1-Fuel filters, maybe since it sat a long time, you shook up some crud that got into the filters, would check fuel pressure too.
2-Could be a sensor line is off as mentioned earlier.

Still hate DDEC, give me a mechanical engine & I smile.

Would not consider it a major issue, certainly not a turbo.

Merry Christmas
Dave M
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2012, 05:27:14 PM »

IMO also not the Turbo, the engine at idle gets little to essentially no advantage from the turbo, it should idle without it.The turbo is a topend power booster...primarily.
that said,my guess is the same as everyone else.
what ddec do you have ?
were i you...IF....I KNOW how to shut the motor down MANUALLY....i would disable the shut down slave and re-start...that will tell you if some other control function is preventing it from running....
IF the thermostats have not opened and mixed the anti freeze..and i did not KNOW that the block was protected...i would drain it completely, and/or drain enuff to KNOW/TEST what the strength of the A-F IS....in that block.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 06:10:04 PM by eagle19952 » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2012, 06:06:44 PM »

Find out what is shutting the engine off.

Does air pressure figure in your engine stop mechanisms on that model?

Don't go making more trouble opening things up, diagnose, diagnose, diagnose.

Tools are your enemy, as self inflicted trouble comes next.

I'm not big on the filters or air in the fuel being the problem, or you wouldn't have got three good starts out of it, it would have died and that would be it.

Starts fine, runs for a minute and dies, three times, the same.

Something is shutting the engine off.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 06:15:27 PM »

Wow - You guys are awesome.  It's the night before Christmas Eve and you all are making me sleep better already. (Best gift ever Smiley )

Here are my replies -

Quote
Do you have a safety system kicking in and killing the engine?  Did you knock a wire off a sensor?  I don't see how this could be the turbo as the turbo starts spinning as exhaust starts flowing.  It appears the engine is still idling when it dies so I doubt the turbo.  The turbo isn't going to change a minute in.


Brian - That was my very first thought and I quickly looked under the dash for something disconnected and under the engine where I was working as well.  Quick glance mind you.  I've been buried between the bus - changed thermostats, flushed radiator, installed shower, toilet, plumbing and flooring all in this last week with a 6 day show that still needs some preproduction done that I leave for on Christmas day.And I'm running a fever of 102 as I type this. Heres a pic of the floor as it was going in -


Quote
Look somewhere besides the turbo they run with out turbo boost it will make a bunch of black or white smoke with a bad turbo sounds like ice in the filters or the skinner valve


Cliff - Filters are the first place I will look.  Changing the filters was attempted but I didn't have a filter wrench and covington put them on really stupid tight when they changed the oil so I couldn't get them off by hand.  Skinner valve - no clue but I will hunt it down and find it.  I'm really enjoying the engine work.  I told my wife I want to go back to school to be diesel mechanic.

 
Quote
 tHE FUEL IS BEING SHUT OFF OR ITS RUNNING OUT OF FUEL,, Its like the air is building up and shutting down the engine, check the forward controls and switches. I would automaticaly pull the filters and check or replace.>>>an
 


Smiley)an - Yeah...I thought it was being shut off becuase of some other issue.  Just need to figure that issue out.  Filters are on the list.  Thank you!

Quote
Two thoughts come to me,

1-Fuel filters, maybe since it sat a long time, you shook up some crud that got into the filters, would check fuel pressure too.
2-Could be a sensor line is off as mentioned earlier.

Still hate DDEC, give me a mechanical engine & I smile.

Would not consider it a major issue, certainly not a turbo.

Merry Christmas
Dave M


Dave - It is mechanical engine, no DDEC (you may already know that...and if TA designates DDEC then that was my mistake).  That was one of my pre-reqs for purchasing.  Got enough to learn already without dealing with electronics too.  Super glad to hear its not mechanical.
 
Quote
IMO also not the Turbo, the engine at idle gets little to essentially no advantage from the turbo, it should idle without it.The turbo is a topend power booster...primarily.
that said,my guess is the same as everyone else.
what ddec do you have ?
were i you...IF....I KNOW how to shut the motor down MANUALLY....i would disable the shut down slave and re-start...that will tell you if some other control function is preventing it from running....
IF the thermostats have not opened and mixed the anti freeze..and i did not KNOW that the block was protected...i would drain it completely, and/or drain enuff to KNOW what the strength of the A-F IS....
 


Don - Thanks - I will definitly try finding the shut down slave.  That right there is smart.  Will at least point me in the right direction....only worry is if there is good reason for shutting down.  Should I be worried about damage if it is?

I was trying to run the engine to get the water and AF mixed so that I could check it and then this happens (figures right?).  Would it be better to just pull the thems and drain the fluid out of the block for now until I can get back to it?  (I'll be gone until the 2nd of January). No freeze here till I get back.  Might hit 32 on Thurs night but it would be for 1 or 2 hours between 5am and 6:30 in the morning....not enough to freeze the engine...I pray...  I have left a bottle of water under the engine to check for ice when I come out in the mornings.  It got down to about 30 Friday night but not even a thin film on the top of the water at 6:45am.

Sorry for the Novel.  Hope you enjoy reading.  Thanks again all.  You are a true blessing this Holiday Season.

-Sean
 
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 06:24:05 PM »

Find out what is shutting the engine off.

Does air pressure figure in your engine stop mechanisms on that model?

Don't go making more trouble opening things up, diagnose, diagnose, diagnose.

Tools are your enemy, as self inflicted trouble comes next.

I'm not big on the filters or air in the fuel being the problem, or you wouldn't have got three good starts out of it, it would have died and that would be it.

Starts fine, runs for a minute and dies, three times, the same.

Something is shutting the engine off.

happy coaching!
buswarrior


BW - Thanks - I think you are all of the same mind, which is assuring, something killing the engine.  Not sure about the air pressure.  Usually it's a slow climb (need fast Idle) to get up over 50, once it starts building it does good and fine when running (takes about a minute to build up from 75 to 100 when I knock it down to test). There is a leak or two somewhere and RJ mentioned in the past to have the compressor looked at which is on the list of things to do. 

Thanks for the advice.  I just need to lay under the bus and absorb its energy and let it speak to me Wink.

-Sean
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 06:44:18 PM »

A lot of mechanical engines still have safety systems which quite often have been bypassed by previous owners.
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2012, 06:48:44 PM »

to the right direct of the "metal" box that does not have a cover...on your coach that has all the relays etc. < AT THE REAR,adjacent to the switches that you were using to start the coach in your you-tube vid.....there should be two valves with air lines coming out...they are the air directing electrically operated controls <IE:THE SKINNER VALVES> that activate my/your?, high idle, and fuel shut-off.
the slaves (to where the skinner valves send their air when told too)are located on top of the governor housing behind the turbo..my coach is a 1978/no DDEC mechanical but I am reasonably certain these parts of the start stop skinner arrangement is the ssame.
Guys like clifford will know for certain.

This portion of the shut down arrangement is unlikely compromised by a previous owner....your bus would have told you about that a long while ago...I watched the tube of your wife driving,not a class I like to teach...LOL she did good.My wife is wimpy she is not strong enuff to work the shifter with her left hand and has a hard time mashing that big yellow knob...also on the left and back aways...

an important question is..is your motor a DDEC...
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 06:58:04 PM by eagle19952 » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2012, 06:51:40 PM »

Maybe it burped and your water level is low in tank and it is shutting down on low coolant? Another thing  that happened to me was I knocked fuel pressure wire loose when working on t-stat.  your shut down does not work until you build up air pressure.  but as long as you have air pressure remaining in system after it shuts you down.It will sense the problem and keep the fuel shut off. Air bleeds off over night engine will start and run till air pressure builds up enough to operate shut off(that is triggered by problem).
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2012, 07:12:10 PM »

All the symptoms are here. slow to build air, mechanical engine, shuts off a minute or so after starting...

The coach builds air pressure just enough to activate the fuel shut off.

Then leaks away and it starts all over again for the next attempt.

Remove the screws from the air piston that engages the fuel shut off and put the piston off to the side so it can't push on the fuel shut off, and start it up.

You will shortly see the air piston move out.

The electrical part of the engine stop circuit is not being properly energized to "ignition on"

The other half of this, you can't shut the engine off without air pressure, so trying to immediately stop after starting doesn't work.

edit: oh, and get better, the coach can wait for your fever to go away!

happy coaching!
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2012, 07:53:17 PM »

Robert is on the right track - the problem is your coolant shutdown - you can verify this by running your ddec codes - you probably need to top of your surge tank and burp the system - It is possible that you knocked a wire loose while working on the system but more likely your system needs burped - the reason it starts then shuts down is because of the shutdown delay - Isn't your check engine light lit on the dash? HTH
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2012, 08:00:01 PM »

BW saids:Remove the screws from the air piston that engages the fuel shut off and put the piston off to the side so it can't push on the fuel shut off, and start it up.
You will shortly see the air piston move out.
The electrical part of the engine stop circuit is not being properly energized to "ignition on".....and
and essentially I saids the same thing...BUT WITOUT THAT CYLINDER IN PLACE IF YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO SHUT THE MOTOR DOWN YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO WITHOUT DRASTIC SECONDARY MEASURES ..LIKE RUNNING OUT OF FUEL....YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS THE SHUT DOWN MANUALLY.< i USE A BROOM STICK...AND I DO NOT HAVE A 700 DEGREE TURBO IN MY WAY....AFTER THE MOTOR IS RUNNING IS NOT THE TIME TO REALIZE THAT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW.

but BOB may be on to something too especially if you have a low water safety shutoff ...{(i do not), I have low oil PSI shut down and high temp warning and high temp shutdown...}does your thermostat housing cross over pipe have a bleed valve...open close.... is it pointing up...it should be...

My start up procedure after sitting only a short time/EVERY TIME, because i'm anal, is to drain my air tanks...by exercising the brake pedal..and/or draining the tanks manually to 0 psi.
Then without turning the key on the dash to the start position, I alwaysstart in the rear, then when the air pressure reaches about 30 psi, my engine shuts down, in the same manner as yours does now. This proves that the shut down system works,which to me is as important as startability...especially not 50 miles from home...
THEN i turn on the  dash key,and restart and build system air psi to 120+ and then shut down with the key shut off. and restart. this confirms that all of the controls are operating properly,then flip the high idle check,etc etc.run partial stall against the park and service brakes etc etc...
something is sending shutdown air...perhaps the relay that feeds the skinner from the key on the dash?

you are a mechanical 92 series ??...non DDEC....HuhHuh?
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2012, 08:05:07 PM »

Sounds to me like a simple problem of a switch shut off.
It may be the "shut down switch" used in the rear by the mechanic while the front switch is still on.

Either way it's definitely shutting down as the air builds up.

If it's a "low coolant sensor" you can "temp" bypass that with a paper clip to see if it allows it to run longer or not. If it does then it's a bad sensor or connection.
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2012, 08:13:39 PM »

Take note of the eagle's warning.

Yes, there were mechanical 6V92 turbos. The first 102 A had 'em, the big smoke clouds on pull away...


.BUT WITOUT THAT CYLINDER IN PLACE IF YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO SHUT THE MOTOR DOWN YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO WITHOUT DRASTIC SECONDARY MEASURES ..LIKE RUNNING OUT OF FUEL....YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS THE SHUT DOWN MANUALLY.< i USE A BROOM STICK...AND I DO NOT HAVE A 700 DEGREE TURBO IN MY WAY....AFTER THE MOTOR IS RUNNING IS NOT THE TIME TO REALIZE THAT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW.

you are a mechanical 92 series ??...non DDEC....HuhHuh?

happy coaching!
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2012, 08:27:42 PM »

If it's a "low coolant sensor" you can "temp" bypass that with a paper clip to see if it allows it to run longer or not. If it does then it's a bad sensor or connection.


or you can look in the surge tank and see if it is low on coolant...if it is and there is a sender and wire attached....fill it up to above the level of the unit...that will "reset" the low water shut down. if that is your trouble you got a real easy Christmas gift...
but if you drove it for any length of time and did not drain the engine...[which is easy...but i digress]....then the odds of an air block are less... but still very possible.

so...read and absorb all what has been written...say a litttle prayer and then go forth and become one with your motive power... Wink
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2012, 09:07:20 PM »

Eagle 19952 is correct Sean's bus does not have a low coolant shut down only a light for low coolant it does have hi temp shut down,a simple fix when he figures out the system
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2012, 09:08:11 PM »

Everybody -

Sean's Eagle has a MECHANICAL 6V92TA engine.

It is NOT a DDEC!

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2012, 09:15:54 PM »

I knew that lol to add his model 10 may have a all in one fuel shut down that may throw him when he starts looking for a skinner valve and a air slave cylinder
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« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2012, 03:43:52 AM »

BK, Great catch, I should have thought of that also.  Sure does have that sound when the air builds up with the switch off.
Merry Christmas
Dave M
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« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2012, 06:07:04 AM »

In original post he said he ran to front of bus to make sure front key was on because he had made mistake before.  Also said later he had mechanical engine, Did not know Eagle didn't have low coolant sensor.  Just trying to understand myself and help.    Dumb thing to check and don't tell if you find out --- out of fuel???  you can have a little in tank but be above pick up.  Bob   Guilty!
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« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2012, 06:48:47 AM »

Turbo does nothing for starting and idling. You're getting fuel-if you were loosing your prime it would start and sputter off rather fast.
What is happening is you start the engine and the air pressure starts to build up. Then when it gets to around 20 psi-that's enough for the stop air piston to close the governor. You have some sort of short in the on/off solenoid or it isn't getting power to keep the piston open. Simple experiment-take the stop air piston off the top of the governor and start the engine and see if it continues to run. Then to stop it you can just reach in and push the lever by hand. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2012, 11:33:25 AM »

Quote from:  Grin  BK  Grin
If it's a "low coolant sensor" you can "temp" bypass that with a paper clip to see if it allows it to run longer or not. If it does then it's a bad sensor or connection.
Quote from: eagle19952
or you can look in the surge tank and see if it is low on coolant...if it is and there is a sender and wire attached....fill it up to above the level of the unit...that will "reset" the low water shut down. if that is your trouble you got a real easy Christmas gift...
but if you drove it for any length of time and did not drain the engine...[which is easy...but i digress]....then the odds of an air block are less... but still very possible.

so...read and absorb all what has been written...say a litttle prayer and then go forth and become one with your motive power... Wink

OK so I didn't spell it out. The part about using a paper clip was to see if the sensor was bad or he'd messed up the wiring/connection when working on it.
I took it for granted that he's already made sure that the "surge tank" was full!
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2012, 11:45:25 AM »

Interesting, If you have the fast idle setup in addition to the air shutdown, you need to keep a clear head as to what is what.  One of the things I enjoyed about playing the DD engines and all the various setups, no end to what evers.
Dave M
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« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2012, 11:53:43 AM »

One more thought on the TA engines, IF I ever did another 6V or 8V with the after cooler mounted in the vee, I would remove it and plumb in a CAC and mount on the cool side of the radiator.  Reasons, Less restrictive, more power ,get it out of the vee, next the much cooler air from the CAC improved hp
Have removed then and engine was much peppier but the egt went up quicker.
Dave M
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« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2012, 05:14:44 AM »

Hi Sean, Sorry you are having problems. I had the same issue with your bus when I was at Arcadia and the bus had lost prime. Also had the same issue with the current bus but it was due to needing to rebuild the Racor filter. Remember that you have an electric fuel pump that is plumbed in the fuel filter and if you place the hose in a five gallon fuel can and turn on the pump, it will prime the system and allow the fuel pump to pick up fuel. If it lost prime then you need to figure out why. I had a leaking cross over pipe at Arcadia and it was making oil! Changed the oil and repaired when we got home. Your engine is a 6V92 TA mechanical engine.
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« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2012, 05:50:25 AM »

I'm betting on one of the the high temp shutdowns on the thermostat housings. It's right where you were working and simple is usually better in times like these.
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« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2013, 01:33:24 PM »

Just wanted to follow up and let you know that after about an hour of tinkering in the back of the bus this morning we finally figured out what it was.

It seems that one of the negative DC wires from the oil pressure gauge that sends a signal to one of the 2 skinner valves became disconnected.  After toning out all the wires we made our best guess and she runs purrrfectly fine now.

There are so many wires unlabled and disconnected in the back it had us scratching our heads for a little trying to narrow it down.  Would be good for me to go through and rewire/relabel and clean it up a little in the back end there.  It will end up being a few new posts I am sure of it.

Thanks guys for all your help.  You got my nose in just the right spot and it helped me tremendously in fixing this.  You are all a bunch of bus bad asses.

-Sean



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'Cause you know we,
we live in a van (Eagle 10 Suburban)
Driving through the night
To that old promised land'
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