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Author Topic: Diesel fired heaters.......  (Read 3227 times)
OneLapper
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« on: January 14, 2013, 05:56:23 PM »

Gentlemen,

For a couple of months I have been checking Ebay and CL looking for a decent used Webasto DBW2010.  Does anyone know of source for a used 12vdc diesel hydronic furnace?  I know the topic of brands has been discussed at length on this forum, but if you can't find them to buy, maybe availability is more important?

Yes, new is available, but more than I want to pay.

Thanks guys!

Mark
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OneLapper
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 06:11:15 PM »

Skoolies being auctioned off? 

 Huh
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RJ Long
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 09:01:17 PM »

I had the same thought but haven't found a source that scraps skoolies....

Too bad Nimco isn't dealing in bus parts any longer.  I bought a super 8V71 from them some years ago (fresh rebuild with brand new block for $2250!) and they had pallets of Webasto 2010s for $450 each.  I'm kicking myself now.

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OneLapper
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2013, 03:21:28 AM »

Why not a Proheat X45 ? That is the way I am going. Totally self contained, compact.
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Steve Canzellarini
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2013, 04:40:43 AM »

I have a Proheat from MCI 12 for sale, but it is 24 volt unit.
Jack
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 05:18:23 AM »

Complete Webasto 2010 system, incl pump, heat exch., expansion tank, and much more. Used once in a bench test.
Mike in GA
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« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2013, 06:38:19 AM »

Jack,

Can you PM me some info on the Proheat you have? 

Thanks!
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OneLapper
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2013, 06:47:04 AM »

Complete Webasto 2010 system, incl pump, heat exch., expansion tank, and much more. Used once in a bench test.
Mike in GA

Mike, I sent you a message! 

I don't know why I didn't ask here before wasting my time online.....  Thanks guys!

Hmmm..... My house batteries are wired for 12vdc (6vdc in series and parallel) There's a way of getting 24v out that? Or do I need a 24v inverter?   Hmmmm.  More reach to do....
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OneLapper
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« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2013, 08:48:11 AM »

There's a way of getting 24v out that? Or do I need a 24v inverter? 

     For that, you need a "converter" for 12V to 24V.  But most of them are pretty limited on the amount of amperage so be certain of the current draw on the heater and be sure that the converter you select has sufficient power output.  (Don't expect one of these to be inexpensive.)
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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2013, 09:38:59 AM »

Can you guys educate me on the advantages of the diesel fired heater? Seems like a propane furnace would be less expensive to operate.....well maybe not, propane is small quantities is pretty expensive....
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« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2013, 10:24:54 AM »

Always amazes me that people put up with all the maintenance issues of Diesel Fired heaters. Granted they put out alot of heat and you do have endless hot water. But considering a new AquaHot system with heat exchangers is around $8,000.00, I'll stick to my very reliable propane heat, and with electric heat.
Two 10gal electric water heaters are about $550.00 and the Propane furnace with ducts is about $900. Quite a bit different in cost-plus the electric water heaters are just about no maintenance. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2013, 11:10:17 AM »

Here's my thought on the propane vs. electric vs. diesel for heating........
 
When I bought my bus it had a gas generator, a propane heater, and an electric cooktop, and one seriously leaky and poor running 8V71.  I was originally planning to use propane for heat and cooking, but as a complete surprise, my dad bought me a couple induction hobs.  I can use the hobs while on the pole, running the generator or off the inverter/house batteries.  I really like them, so I scrapped the idea of cooking with propane.  Plus the hobs just sit on top of the counter and are stored under the counter top.  Plus I can use them outside.  Then the gas generator died and I bought a well loved Westerbeke 8kw diesel marine unit.  I hated the smell of the gas, somehow I always had fumes getting inside the bus.  Then the propane heater's exchanger cracked so I tossed the entire unit (ran poorly and wasn't large enough anyhow).  While sitting in my driveway, drinking a beer, gazing lovingly upon my 4106, I came to the decision to go with a single fuel, diesel.  Diesel for the engine, diesel for the generator, diesel for heating, diesel for everyone!
 
The only future problem my "single fuel" plan causes is for the propane grill and my dream to add propane injection to the engine.  I imagine I'll eventually install a propane tank and make a distribution system that I can use quick disconnects for the grill, patio heater, the gas lamps, the injection system, etc etc etc LOL!  BUT, I won't NEED propane for any of the major systems.  The other issue is I usually don't have a toad when I go camping (boondocking mostly) and running out of propane is PITA when you need to pack up your crap and go find a filling station!
 
Oh, and when the Zombies attack, won't it be easier to hunt for just one type of fuel instead of three?Huh?
 
There you go.  Not the most elegant explanation, but one that works best for me and how I use my bus.
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OneLapper
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« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2013, 11:52:19 AM »

Always amazes me that people put up with all the maintenance issues of Diesel Fired heaters. Granted they put out alot of heat and you do have endless hot water. But considering a new AquaHot system with heat exchangers is around $8,000.00, I'll stick to my very reliable propane heat, and with electric heat.
Two 10gal electric water heaters are about $550.00 and the Propane furnace with ducts is about $900. Quite a bit different in cost-plus the electric water heaters are just about no maintenance. Good Luck, TomC

Tom,
 
I hear you!  A new propane unit is much less expensive than the diesel hydronic systems, but I'm hoping I can buy a good used unit and spend a few dollars to do a full PM on it.  I may very well come to hate the diesel fired system but there seems to be plenty of them out there, especially in the marine industry!  I saw a boat that had a diesel fired "wood stove", diesel fired cooktop, diesel fired oven.... Now that's "single source"!  Besides, my experience has been if you take your time to tune or rebuild something and spend the money on the right parts, once it's up to snuff they tend to hum along.  An example.  My ex-father-in-law and his snowmobiles.  Every year the carb gums up because he never drains the gas or uses a stabilizer.  The first run of the next season the engine blows a hole in the piston.  I rebuild the engine for him.  The next season he does it again.  This time the dealer rebuilds the entire engine.  Then the carbs get gummed up again and it doesn't start.  In the end he gives me the sled and buy a new 4 stroke sled.  I haven't had a single problem with that sled in 6 years!
 
For hot water I picked up a $100 Raritan 12 gallon water heater with exchanger and 115vac electric element.  The unit was installed but never once used.  Of course it didn't work when I got it, but the price was right.  I figure I can use the diesel furnace to heat the hot water and the engine, or I can use the heat exchanger on Westerbeke and heat the hot water with the hot coolant before it goes to the generators radiator.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 01:05:33 PM by OneLapper » Logged

OneLapper
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« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2013, 08:12:29 PM »

As always, the best part of this hobby is, everyone is right!!!

How we each use the coach,
how we each want to spend our money,
how we each do the calculations to arrive at
a plan we each want to implement.

Scavenging as much heat as possible from the various diesel fired devices is a worthy goal.

Engine or generator coolant routed through a water heater loop and/or also used for direct to interior heat exchangers is a worthy goal.

There have been a number of busnuts install piping in their coach floors for lovely warm radiant floor heating.

Positioning the coolant boiler in the tank bay with an outside air source piped to it's intake will help keep the bay warm by the wasted heat given off by the boiler.

A longer length of large diameter exhaust pipe also allows for waste heat to be radiated into a space the pipe is run through. The manuals for the coolant boiler will tell you the limits for bends and length allowable before you risk disrupting the combustion.

And a hefty coolant boiler plumbed into the engine circuit makes short work of engine pre-heating in winter and arctic conditions. It also serves well to supplement an idling engine in those same cold conditions to maintain both coach interior temp and proper engine operating temperatures, should a busnut be forced, or choose, to idle the engine to maintain livable conditions, perhaps due to other component breakdown.

In more moderate temperatures, juggling the costs of generator and an electric heater or sourcing a used diesel fired air heater might be considered for economical operation.

Redundancy does make life easier for a busnut, and at rare times, recovers situations of greater gravity, that off-shore boaters and fliers are more likely to consider.

I wrote a related article found here: http://busnut.com/forum/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=43

happy coaching!
buswarrior





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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2013, 02:51:12 AM »

I personally wouldn't have propane on a bus or boat for safety reasons - I'm not saying that it's 'unsafe', just less safe than diesel - and at least on a bus any leaked gas is likely to be able to escape, not build up in the bilges. But I still wouldn't use it. Plus there are laws here which require certification and annual inspection of gas installations in vehicles, which increase the cost and hassle of propane.


Jeremy
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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2013, 06:46:10 AM »

I agree with Jeremy about having propane on a boat. Since propane is heavier then air, it can pool in the bilge and have a very effective boat blowing apart explosion. That's why most boaters use natural gas which is lighter then air.
On a bus, the propane can be used quite safely with quality fittings and electronic sniffers. I have a solenoid on my tank that has a switch inside the bus so only when I need the propane is it on. Besides, my only propane items is my stove and furnace. Everything else is electric. I like so much, I'm repeating the same on my truck conversion. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2013, 01:50:37 PM »

You missed a good one on ebay for Buy it now $ 850.00  DBW 2010  They show up time to time
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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2013, 02:00:17 PM »

Propane/LPGas,  I had the Dual Refrig, DC/LPGas, nice box, but I worry about the lp and burning up my toy, so I had it removed and installed a Samsung Counter Depth 24.1 cuft with water and ice in door, WOW ! do love it and no more LP to worry about, so remoing the LP tank, have space for the 4th & 5th 8D Gel Batteries. total 5 with 1125 AH worth of battery.
Oh Joy
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« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2013, 02:53:35 PM »

825lbs of batteries!
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2013, 05:29:23 PM »

I read once that there are more electrical fires in recreation vehicles than propane fires, so it seems safety is a function of use and maintenance.

As far as heaters go, having one fuel is a convenience.  We have three: diesel engine, gas generator, and propane furnace/heaters and stove.  If the genny died, I might get a diesel, but changing to diesel heat seems unnecessarily costly and high maintenance for my needs.  However, the top of the line products of the world are often costly and high maintenance. 
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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2013, 06:07:07 PM »

I chose a diesel heater in large part because I don't have any place to run the duct work required for a forced air furnace.  I will have spent between $2000 and $2500 for my whole system once I get the installation finished.

Clifford says that propane boilers use a whole lot less fuel than diesel boilers, but they are difficult to find especially in used.
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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2013, 07:29:52 PM »

I suppose there one more factor in my single fuel decision.....

I was a propane certified mechanic years ago.  When the equipment I sold and serviced ran well, it was perfectly safe for the operator to use.  But when it wasn't safe, that machine could make everyone in a huge warehouse or store sick in a matter of hours or minutes!  Just one cylinder not firing would do it.  Or a faulty regulator.  Or it running rich. And especially a dirty air filter.

I received some great replies about available units out there, thanks guys!
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OneLapper
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« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2013, 10:14:34 PM »

I have never had a diesel heater, but I would question whether they would have less, if not more, potential for problems than what you experienced in your propane service work.  I am sure that burners get clogged at least as often considering it is a liquid rather than a gas.  There would even be a greater chance of particulate clogging.  They are also relatively loud.  I have heard some compare them to a jet engine noise.  The smell is much more noxious for both you and your neighbors too.  Which would you rather be parked next to?

Ducting can certainly be an issue, but I question whether much ducting is really necessary.  We have the furnace in the living area with three or four registers pumping the air in various directions with almost no ducting.  We are not exactly heating the Superdome here.  If a roof air can cool without ducting, why wouldn't a heater work without it too.  This setup heats the front area quite well and is generally enough for the bedroom too.  If not, we have a Platinum Cat there which also does fine.  Sometimes at night, I set the furnace at around 60-65 and just turn up the bedroom heater to a more respectable temperature.

This gives a little redundancy, but not really enough if we were truly deep freeze campers.  One could, of course, have two furnaces, back and front, gaining quality redundancy and still avoiding ducting

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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2013, 12:23:45 PM »

I have it all (at least in the heatin world! ) 4500 pro heat to pre heat eng.and for in floor radiant heat,forced air rads.works great in the cold .You can get the bus up to 75 f easy off eng. or boiler. most nights at 20f or higher we don't need any heat.The radiant heat of the drive all day is lots. But when more is needed I turn on the rv propane wall furance 12000 btu (small unit but works good ) .The radiant heat only works good for the long cold drives.It takes hours to heat up walls floors, inside cabinets that's why when we are in a warmer climate I use a 120 volt cube heater,off gene for the heat up fast times that only last a hour or two . So in a nut shell ,radiant for a long cold time or propane or cube for short blasts.                  dave
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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2013, 05:04:36 PM »

I have it all (at least in the heatin world! ) 4500 pro heat to pre heat eng.and for in floor radiant heat,forced air rads.works great in the cold .You can get the bus up to 75 f easy off eng. or boiler. most nights at 20f or higher we don't need any heat.The radiant heat of the drive all day is lots. But when more is needed I turn on the rv propane wall furance 12000 btu (small unit but works good ) .The radiant heat only works good for the long cold drives.It takes hours to heat up walls floors, inside cabinets that's why when we are in a warmer climate I use a 120 volt cube heater,off gene for the heat up fast times that only last a hour or two . So in a nut shell ,radiant for a long cold time or propane or cube for short blasts.                  dave

I would like to install radiant heat in the floors and walls, but I fully understand that I would still need the forced hot air to get the temps up quickly.  I have radiant in my house and I love how it heats everything in the rooms, but without the forced hot air, it can take 10 hours to heat the house to a comfortable temp. 

The diesel fired heater gives me the option to be creative!  I secretly dream about using it to heat the water in a portable hot tub!!!!
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OneLapper
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2013, 09:22:16 AM »

I have to agree with TomC though not a huge fan of the rv furnaces the propane fired boilers are a lot cheaper to run than a diesel fired unit on the average of 5 or 6 gals of fuel a day at over 4 bucks and going up plus the propane boilers don't sound like a helicopter running and stinking lol
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2013, 10:54:51 AM »

The last time I computed the costs between propane and diesel, I used $3.75/gal for diesel and $3.25/gal for propane.    Propane was 26% more expensive per BTU.    (19300 BTU/#
65% diesel efficiency, 91500 BTU/# 67% propane efficiency.)

With limited maintenance, I have not experience problems with Webastos - knock on wood.

Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2013, 01:40:48 PM »

I have to agree with TomC though not a huge fan of the rv furnaces the propane fired boilers are a lot cheaper to run than a diesel fired unit on the average of 5 or 6 gals of fuel a day at over 4 bucks and going up plus the propane boilers don't sound like a helicopter running and stinking lol

Clifford, where does one even buy a propane boiler?  I could probably locate a couple hundred used diesel heaters before I would ever find a single propane boiler.
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2013, 06:56:02 PM »

Tahiki ( spelling) makes a tankless water heater that can be used as a boiler not positive but I pretty sure it can be converted to propane



               Rick 74MC-8
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