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Author Topic: help with a 8v92 dd2  (Read 2474 times)
jimsflx
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« on: January 15, 2013, 02:15:52 PM »

have a 88 mci with a 8v92 turbo ddec2 set at 400 hp. last week started it up and backed it out of its space so i could take some pictures. left it idle about 10 minutes and started to pull back into the space when it started to skip thought it was out of fuel but dipped the tank and had plenty of fuel. pulled filters both where full. so today i started it back up when you give it fuel it starts to idle up then the shut engine down lite comes on and it goes back to idle. shut it back off and let it set for a while then pulled oil dipstick out and it was about 3 inches above the full mark.pretty shure it is fuel and not water. no bubbles. any ideas? i do not have a pro link avaible. thanks for any imput jim
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
RickB
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2013, 03:30:59 PM »

Check your coolant level. If it's down 3 or 4 gallons you found out what it is.

RB
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2013, 07:03:05 PM »

RB

Another member had what sounds like a similar problem.  It turned out that the DDII had two power cables - both with fuses in the cable.  One of the fuse was blown.

Also, DDEC engines do not run well at all if the voltage drops very much (doesn't take much).

Did your check or stop engine light come on?  There is a way to get your codes via turning off the ignition switch several times in a certain way (can't recall the procedure, but maybe someone will chime in).

Just some thoughts.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2013, 07:47:29 PM »

After I made the last post, I got that uneasy feeling.  The method of checking fault codes with an ignition switch is for OBDII computers as I recall.

I did a bit of searching and some DDEC installations have a "diagnostic request switch".  From what I can tell, it is a push button type switch that you hold down for a few seconds and the code(s) flash on the CEL and SEL lights. 

One post I read said the you can short out two terminals on the data port and get the data (think that might be what the "diagnostic request switch".  I would guess that the wiring diagrams I have at home might tell how to wire that switch, but I am not home.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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RickB
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2013, 07:57:17 PM »

Jim,

I was referring to the oil level mysteriously rising 3 inches above the full mark. That means 3 gallons of "something" just showed up in the oil and jimsflx, in his post, was leaning towards that "something" being fuel, which is possible from what I understand. I just thought since it can only be one other possible liquid, maybe a quick check of his coolant level would reveal a 3 or 4 gallon loss and it might be a quick solution as to what is in his oilpan. I get what you're saying about recent electrical ddec issues but obviously that doesn't explain a major change in oil level on the dip stick. Just trying to clarify my post.

Jimsflx, if you have an Infrared Temperature gun you may want to see if you can get it up to temp and shoot each cylinder's exhaust manifold to see if you've got one cylinder that is running alot cooler than the others. However, if that's coolant in the oil, running your engine could ruin it completely. Catch 22's stink big time. Good luck and keep us posted. I especially am interested in what you find out because I just purchased a motor that is exhibiting the same symptoms.

RB

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B_K
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 11:57:01 PM »

Jim is this the same one you had problems with last yr?

If so just out of curiosity did you ever find and fix that problem? And what was it?
I remember you trying lots of things but never saw the end results.

Any chance this is related?
Grin  BK  Grin
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blue_goose
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2013, 04:56:14 AM »

If you have 3 gal of fuel in the oil you shouldn't run the engine again until you find out where the fuel is getting into the oil. YOu could have a broken fuel line going to the injectors.  That would be the cause of the missing and fuel in the oil.
Jack
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TomC
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2013, 06:42:09 AM »

If there was coolant in the oil, the oil would have turned into a milky mess. Most likely fuel. Even though the DDEC engines have electronically controlled injectors, they still have the same type of fuel lines feeding the injectors-meaning they can crack from improper tightening (usually too tight). Good Luck, TomC
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B_K
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2013, 07:03:22 AM »

When my dad an I bought our first coach for the business and brought it home it had "made" about 3 gallons of oil on the 130 mile trip home. ('89 8V92 DDEC)

We discovered it was 6 out of 8 injectors were cracked and leaking. (took a while to find using a pressurized "dye" injector. We checked and checked and could not find it.
Then one night for some reason I decided to "try looking one more time".
Only this time I did it at night and when I turned on the black light wow there were all kinds of orange (the dye) lightning bolt looking cracks visible on those 6 injectors.
It was too bright to see them in the day light, but boy they were easy to spot in the dark!
Grin  BK  Grin
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RickB
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 07:13:35 AM »

TomC,
As I mentioned earlier I am in the middle of purchasing an 8v92 that is exhibiting similar symptoms and the guy I buying it from said the same thing as Jimsflx did in his first post, he thought it was fuel in the crankcase but he also was sure that he had coolant coming out of the slobber tubes and the bus is super low on coolant so it is obvious that he has coolant in the oil not fuel. So here's the weird thing, when I asked him if it was a milky color with froth he said "no, it looks like oil." So, my question is: Does coolant in the oil always turn oil on the dipstick a milky frothy color? I'm thinking in my experience with gas engines it does.

Also, how long would an engine have to be running to pump 3 or 4 gallons through a faulty injector?

I still think it's worth Jim's time to check his coolant level, If he's down 3 or 4 gallons of coolant and up 3 or 4 gallons of liquid in the block I would think there's a fair chance it's coolant not fuel.

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B_K
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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2013, 07:22:13 AM »

Rick as I said in the post above yours it took 130 miles (2.5 hrs) to make 3-4 gallons in ours. But those were "tiny" little cracks that were next to impossible to find.

A blown injector tip, or a injector line snapped in 2 could easily dump way more full in the engine much faster than that.

Also even with those cracked injectors our engine ran "flawlessly" and had lots of power.  Had we not found it way over on oil, who knows how long it would have taken us to discover that we even had a problem.
Grin  BK  Grin
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RickB
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2013, 07:35:36 AM »

Bryce. All I have to say is thank God for fuel shutoffs in DDEC's and emergency flappers in MUI's because the idea that the oil level would eventually allow the motor to start running away on a block full of fuel is a scary thought...

RB
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blue_goose
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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2013, 10:45:23 AM »

I just replaced a DD2 8v92 because of water and fuel in the oil.  The water never showed because it came in slow enough that the water boiled off and just left the antifreeze and fuel.  If this extra oil build up was fast it more than likely was fuel if the oil wasn't white. I knew there was a water loss, but there was never a gain in the oil.  Must have been using oil as fast as the water and fuel was coming into the engine. I found mine with a oil sample test.
Jack
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Rick 74 MC-8
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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2013, 02:30:42 PM »

If the engine has not run for very long the water will be at the bottom of pan just Just loosen the drain plug and see if you get water out


 Rick 74mc-8
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jimsflx
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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2013, 03:28:15 PM »

thanks guys rickb checked the water level put a gallon in.still does same thing. bk yes this the same bus. the problem was a breaker that had a crack in the case and the wire would move and shut it it down. had my hand in there and touch the wire and that was it.moved the wire over to another breaker that was the fix. the mci hase been sitting for a year i did drive it a couple times so when i started it last week this started. the bus is emptey inside.i was going to convert it but i sold my flx and got a nice 4106 with 14,000 miles on the conversion with a rebuilt 8v71 and 4 speed trans.with the paper work.drove it 1500 miles at 70-75 home was down a gt of oil and no leaks. it is the bus that has been in the ads of bcm the last few issues. i love it.so the mci is going up for sale when i get it fixed. i am going to pull the valve covers this week. pretty sure it is fuel in the oil. the dipstick is not milky or has bubbles. going with blue goose idea. injector or cross over tubes. will post when i fine out. thanks again jim
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2013, 07:42:38 AM »

Jim, if you would list your email address in your profile it would be easier for people to contact you. I don't know how to send a PM through this site otherwise.

Thanks, Sam
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1976 MCI-8TA with 8V92 DDEC II and Allison HT740
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2013, 09:39:22 AM »

IF you have fuel in the oil you should be able to smell the fuel.  You can try dropping a few drops of oil on a paper towel and see what happens.  Diesel is thinner than motor oil so it will leave a ring around the oil spot as it wicks away from the thicker oil.
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Dennis Watson
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Scotts, Michigan
1966 MCI MC5A
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expressbus
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2013, 12:12:07 PM »

Jim,

Just went through a similar problem this summer. I was not "gaining" oil but was loosing water level in the surge tank. Pulled an oil test and it identified minerals in the oil that only come from antifreeze. The heat of the engine evaporates the water but leaves antifreeze minerals in the oil.

Now there are a couple possible sources for the "leak". One is from the water pump, too simple. The second is from any one or more of the seals between the cylinder sleeves and the cast block, oh yeah that would be logical since the cost of repair is way higher!

So to start with we pulled the oil pan and then pressurized the cooling system. Found one cylinder on the curbside bank was leaking a small amount of water down the cylinder sleeve. That got us into taking off the head to replace the cylinder kit. With the head off we found some vertical scoring on a couple of the liners. Vertical scoring is not good either for ring life. The cross hatch pattern from honing the sleeves was still very visible.

Anyway, we wound up doing an in chassis engine rebuild. Now just to clarify the "we" I'm referring to is not me but the heavy highway shop I have do my maintenance. Getting parts for these old 2 cycles is becoming a big problem when doing a rebuild. I was without the coach for months.

I hope your problem is not the same as mine but it might be part of your problem.
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Will Garner, Jr
Southern Pines, NC
1991 Prevost Conversion by Country Coach
jimsflx
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2013, 02:28:51 PM »

thanks for all your help. pulled the valve covers about a hour ago. on the drivers side there is a rocker arm not sure if this is what you call it that is broken into. it sets on top of the injector. looking from the back it is the second injector. a friend has some spares. it looks like cast iron and is broken into. the injector looks to be in the open postion. so pretty sure is fuel in the oil. will update in a couple days. thanks again jim my email is busnut1@hotmail.com
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
expressbus
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2013, 07:31:56 AM »

Jim,

Change the oil before driving. The fuel will reduce the viscosity of the oil which is not a good thing. I'd also pull an oil sample from the old oil for testing just to make sure there is nothing else of concern. It will also give you a base line for comparison against future oil sample tests.
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Will Garner, Jr
Southern Pines, NC
1991 Prevost Conversion by Country Coach
jimsflx
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« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2013, 03:17:23 PM »

replaced 2 rockers and 1 injector. new oil and filters. purring like kitten. thanks to everyone jim
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
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« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2013, 04:51:46 PM »

Jim, which 2 rocker arms did you break you do know the injector rocker arm is different from the other 2 ? it has a yellow stripe and a stress relief cut just thought you know in case you didn't

good luck   
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« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2013, 11:01:54 AM »

Jim, Will, and any body else if you are having probelms getting engine parts either Clifford or my self have several outlets for them. Let us know what you want and where you are, we will have them or can recommend someplace to get them.

Will at one time this past summer parts were hard to come by but the problem has been somewhat solved. One fo the probelms is Detroit has been running all over the country buying all the core engines they can find for the reman facility and all the support parts to go with them.

Don

 
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expressbus
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« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2013, 12:20:19 PM »

Don,

I'm good to go for now. Its a long story but in 25 or less - I had an in chassis rebuild done. I logged a grand total of 245 miles before it threw a rod through the block. Yep, distracted tech did not hit all the bolts one last time, and missed at least one or more, before buttoning up the bottom end. I was WB (Without Bus) from 4th June to 4th December. Now having experienced a catastrophic engine failure I'm now a little anxious while operating. The replacement engine is a reman from Jasper Engines in Indiana.

I've built numerous gasoline engines and never had one fail. I maybe should have tried doing a diesel this time.

I also can now relate to words I've heard over the in car radio during a NASCAR race, "I have a vibration ... " Oh well I can scratch that experience from my bucket list, not that I REALLY wanted to have the experience.
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Will Garner, Jr
Southern Pines, NC
1991 Prevost Conversion by Country Coach
jimsflx
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« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2013, 03:36:42 PM »

clifford. thanks and we did know about the injectors. what would be the cause of this?looking at the motor the second injector on both sides where broke. looks like the right side broke first by the wear on it. thanks jim
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