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Author Topic: looking for the best repower  (Read 5330 times)
sledhead
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« on: January 22, 2013, 03:06:09 PM »

After considering a trade for a newer ss motorhome my wife and I have decided to stay with what we have.After all we built it because of the problems the old ss had as well as a safety and longevity. We have a 1990 mci 102c3 with a 6v92 ta (2 year old out of frame rebuild ) and a ht 740 trans. I installed propane injection on it last year and the power is about 10-15 % better under load. I should be happy with what I have... But I want more power.So what is the best combo of cummins eng. (year , model and trans to fit in what we have without to many modifacations . Or is there some more I can do with what I have.   When we get home I will find out the hp and what was installed when it was rebuilt (6v 92 ta )         thanks in advance     dave  and karen                             
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 03:36:53 PM »

I would GUESS, depending on the radiator setup used on your model, the 8V-92 is capable of very good power, but to get away from the 2 stroke, there are a few good choices.  Without knowing your coach, I am some what lost. As to the computer details etc.
Me, I would think about a Cummins ISM 450-500 hp, these are computer engines.
It depends alot on your ability to convert it would be my guess, as paying a shop to do the repower would be a large number, My guess anyway.
Know a chap that repowered his 01 Eagle with the DDC 60 Series, but he is a computer control geek and it worked great.
Of course you could be bitting off a large chunk of experience.
Good Luck
Dave M
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MCI7 20+ Yrs
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luvrbus
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2013, 05:22:13 PM »

 That bus was offered with a Cat engine also it could be easier for  the parts find there is nothing wrong with old Yellow lol
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hargreaves
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 05:24:30 PM »

I just put in a series 50 B 400 combo with 3.73 gears.  Booted the engine up to 350 hp  1200 foot pounds of torque .  Just came down to Quartzsite from vancouver,  no trucks beat me on the hills.  
Love it.  8.5 miles per gallon  at 65 mph 1400 rpm towing a toad.  Cheers gerry

PS I now Clifford does'nt like them. LOL
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now as of Feb 2012 series 50 B400  . Sunshine Coast British Columbia
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2013, 06:13:11 PM »

I have a Year 2000 ISM @ 400hp & 1450 lb/ft of torque.  I love it!  I consistently get high 8s low 9s.  I do drive it like I pay for the fuel, so YMMV.  Plenty of power.  It also runs soooooo much cooler.  I have intercoolers in front of the stock radiators.  Everything keeps up as it should unless it is 105 degrees out and I have it running in 10th gear @ 58 mph.  Then it will slowly heat up.  all I have to do is downshift back into direct (9th) and the temps come right down.  I would not leave home without anymore!
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TomC
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2013, 09:41:11 PM »

You could go with a big block engine like a Series 60, Cummins NTC/N14 or ISX15, Caterpillar 3406/C15-but these are all very tall, heavy, engines best suited for big rig trucks (although some do use these engines). My opinion-the best are pre 2002 (no EGR) of the medium sized-like Cummins M11/ISM, Cat C12. The ISM was used in many trash trucks. You can have it rebuilt up to an RV engine that puts out 500hp and 1550lb/ft torque. Either of these medium engines are about the same height as your 6V-92, but of course a bit longer (the 6V-92 is a real compact engine).
Not only will you increase your power, but could get 2mpg more. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2013, 01:33:47 AM »

Jusst useless info, the ISM Cummins is the smallest Cummins that theyrate as Heavy Duty along with the 855, N14 & ISX, not to be confused with the B, C or ISL series which are Med Duty per Cummins.  Know the L & M Series takes new bearings at 500k and kits & head work at 1 mil. keep getting up.  Also Cummins offers the girdle kit when you remove the pan, have found issues after 1 mil miles, why the girdle kit.  the ISM500 comes with it.  I added it to mine.
I upgraded my 2001 Pre EGR ISM from 450 to 500 with Cummins blessing, they did it for $3,400.00 and the added 100 torque is big, went to waste gate turbo, electric boost sensor control for it and reprogram the ECM, Bingo.
Cheers
Dave M
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 01:52:22 AM by wg4t50 » Logged

MCI7 20+ Yrs
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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 05:38:52 AM »

It may not be the best, but after doing 4 of them it is real good.  That is the series 50 and the world transmission.  Three of these have been in MCI's and one in a Eagle. 
I have just completed the change in my 102C3 that had a 8V92 DD11 and the 755 Allison transmission. I lost HP but so far I can't tell it because of the lower rear end and the 6 speed transmission.  I went from a 3.36 rear to a 4.10, that is a big gain in power.  With the 2 overdrives it keeps the RPM's down.
Another good reason for this combo is you can get into it for not too much money.  There are lots of cheap units on the market.  I bought a MCI 12 with everything in for the last change.  The ones before that were done from city buses.  The city buses will have a world B400 with retarder.  The best way is to buy the bus, bring it home where you are going to make the change and use all the parts. 
Jack
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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2013, 03:20:24 PM »

Gerry,I don't like any engine that has to use a balance shaft like John Deere,Case or DD but I do admit it brings a smile when you go to S&S or Williams when they replace one and cut a hole in the side of the core and send it to engine haven and then have a old 8v71 they are rebuilding LOL
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sledhead
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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2013, 04:09:03 PM »

So it looks like I should look for a m11 or a ism cummins or the cat c12. I like the pre 2002 with out the emessions crap. Now what about a transmission.Would the 740 work with my 333 rear end or is it to low?  I do have a buddy at home that knows a lot this stuff   but me not so much      thanks again  dave
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2013, 05:17:22 PM »

Depends on what speed you like to drive.  Lots of folks use the HT740 with a four stroke.  Not ideal but it works.  See chart below from my engine conversion article series in Bus Conversion Magazine.



The first two columns represent an HT 740 with the most common rear end ratios, while the last two columns represent the impact of world transmission overdrive ratios (or AutoShift with .74 overdrive).

The "ideal" cruise rpm for most four stroke engines is 1400-1500.

Jim
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 05:31:22 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2013, 06:08:36 PM »

No matter what you do, in the long run you'd be better off finding a conversion/shell with what you want for an engine. You'll end up spending more money to change it out than you realize. If you like labor intensive jobs, find a shell the same as yours with the larger factory installed engine and swap everything, then install your engine and or trans in the donor shell and sell it.I don't follow MCI's, so I don't know if anything else was available. Or, you could be more patient on the hills.
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2013, 06:33:24 PM »

The ISM needs to be behind an over drive transmission.  You will get much better fuel mileage if you do.
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twostick
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2013, 07:05:50 PM »

If it was me, I would be looking for a DDEC3 S60 12.7 if I was going to the trouble of a 4 stroke conversion. M11/ISM/N14/ISX engines have the same lousy throttle control that the PT pump from the  mechanical NTC engines had and they can't touch the DDEC3 fuel mileage in my experience. Lots of people have good luck with CAT but I never owned one that didn't try to bankrupt me. CAT IMHO stands for "Can't afford this"  Grin. I've seen lots of C12's turn themselves into C thrus.

The EGR stuff didn't start until Oct of 03 but the low NoX software started in 98 so for ideal fuel economy/power you would look for a DDEC3 with a MFG date pre 98 that hasn't had the ECM software upgraded to 98 specs. The fleet I worked for at the time saw the fleet fuel average drop by 1 mpg on their S60's when they went to 99 model trucks compared to the 96 and 97's. This was true for all MFG's.

All this being said I have always had a soft spot in my heart for a 2 stroke and an air to air aftercooled 6v92 can get really respectable fuel mileage when driven and tuned accordingly.  Hard to get big power and big economy with a mechanical engine tho. You could hot rod the 6V and go with bigger injectors, play with the timing, air to air if it isn't already and step up to a bigger turbo so it doesn't smoke like a freight train but you probably just spent the price of an 8v92 for about the same gain. Torque is your friend and for that there is no replacement for displacement.

3.33's with a direct drive trans preferably with a lock-up torque converter will cruise 64 mph@1700 with 11r24.5 tires. A 2 stroke might be happy there but for a 4 stroke to get good mileage it will want to see a cruise rpm range between 1350-1500 rpm if you are talking pre 1998 specs. More MPH means spending more fuel$$ no matter how it's geared.

If you upgrade your trans to an Allison World you will need an axle ratio of 3.90-4.10 depending on tire size. 4.10's will get you 66 mph@1375 with 24.5 rubber with the World .64 OD or 3.90's with 22.5's.

Here's a handy road speed calculator link

http://www.analysis-inc.com/reference/road-speed-calculator/

Kevin
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2013, 07:51:40 PM »

Kevin, what do you mean by "lousy throttle control"?  I have no experience with a S60 DDEC 3 to compare to.  My comparison is to the 6v92 I had before.  The difference in throttle response is night and day better with the ISM.  My analysis is the throttle control is great.  However, I'm interested in what you mean and how it could be better.

Thanks!
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HB of CJ
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2013, 08:19:37 PM »

Excellent answers already given.  Yep....the very old NTC or even earlier Big Cam Cummins 855 series are mechanical mill that are again...big, tall and heavy.  But...if you like older stuff and if the mill will physically fit in your Bus Conversion...

Then the very old Big Cam Cummins MAY be a good candidate.  Easy to get to over 500 hp and 1650 torque using cheap, (inexpensive) good used factory parts.  With a little bit of injector, pump, intercooler, timing and turbo work, ...

Along with a big air cleaner and good exhaust, over 600 EASY "street" hp are available.  Try www.pittsburgfuelinjection.net for some good stuff for the older stuff.  I was going to do this with my old Crown...but didn't.  HB of CJ
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« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2013, 08:33:10 PM »

On an automatic it's probably a moot point but I got spoiled on 3406 Cat and S60 engines that use variable speed style governors. On those the tach basically follows your foot exactly. If you gave it half throttle you got exactly that many rpm every time. On a Cummins PT fuel system the only thing that was constant was idle speed or max speed. If there was no load on the engine, 1/4 throttle could give you 2100 rpm. Downshifting was a "stab and grab" operation and if you stabbed too hard you overshot your target rpm and not hard enough, came up short. It all made for some rough gear changes until you got your "timing" down right.

The Celect system on the M11 and N14 is almost as bad but for a different reason. Because the throttle lag is so bad, you tend to overfuel it and when it finally responds, the end result is the same.

Kevin
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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2013, 06:07:57 AM »

I have a big cam Cummins in my Eagle and it has been a very good motor. The conversion is about 10 years old and has about 105000 miles on it. The motor has been trouble free. The last trip to Florida we but on 4600 miles and got 6.72 miles per gallon. There are a couple of problems with the motor you should know about. At cold start up they smoke a lot, mine does not have that problem because the Agua Hot keeps the motor nice and warm. The other problem is while going down the road the motor will smoke a little bit. The problem with that is the exhaust exits low and will stink up your toad. I pull a Jeep wrangle and about every 10 or 15 thousand miles we will completely clean the soot out of the inside of the Jeep. I have tried all kinds of things to correct this and I have found it is the nature of the beast. I have found it helps to give it all the air on the intake side. ( I have to large filter ). And keep it tuned helps a lot. The next bus will be an electronic motor 60 S.

Wayne
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2013, 07:08:12 AM »

I had a pre EGR 1995 12.7L S60 in a D3. Great engine. Gobs of torque between 1200 and 1800 rpm.

It is a cold blooded engine in the winter. It came with a Webasto from the factory, and it was needed. I drove it a few trips with it not working. Really smokey until it got to temperature, which takes a long time. And the temp falls back down really fast idling around town or sitting. Plus it is a great thing for pre-heating for nice easy start when it is cold out.

Got 8 to 9 m/Cnd gal, 7ish US. (7 speed manual).

JC
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JC
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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2013, 07:50:54 AM »

Jim-Allison World transmission B500, HD4060, 4000HS has a .74 and .64 (not .61) overdrive.

Rusty-it is entirely possible to get that big cam to stop smoking. It is a function of having the properly sized turbo to the fuel button you're running. In your case, you have too big a fuel button for your turbo-hence the sooty smoking. One of two things-run a smaller button (less fuel) which means less power, or get a turbo with a smaller hot housing so it spins up more providing more air hence less smoking. Your fuel mileage might go up also. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2013, 08:03:05 AM »

The Allison World transmission (B500, HD4060, 4000HS-all the same) is a much better choice for transmission. Granted the HT740 is a bullet proof transmission and is a mechanical trans, but only has 4spds with 4th being direct drive. If you're running 12R-22.5 tires @ 485rpm, on a Series 60, your top sweet spot rpm of 1600 will get you a speed of 59mph. We used to gear the Series 60 trucks for 1600rpm at 75mph. With using the World transmission, to get that speed, you can run 4.11 gears. And since the first 4 gears of both the HT740 and 4000 series are basically the same, the startability with the World transmission using 4.11 instead of 3.36's is quite obvious. Besides, if you're putting in a different engine, most likely you'd use an electronic engine-which the Allison 4000 series will work just fine with. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2013, 08:03:27 AM »

If you upgrade your trans to an Allison World you will need an axle ratio of 3.90-4.10 depending on tire size. 4.10's will get you 66 mph@1375 with 24.5 rubber with the World .64 OD or 3.90's with 22.5's.

I already have a bus with Series 60 and B500.  I have 4.10 gearing and 24.5 rubber.  My 2nd overdrive is locked out.  Is it worth trying to get 2nd overdrive re-enabled?  I would need to find someone who has the software that isn't an actual Allison dealer as Allison dealers won't make the change.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2013, 10:20:23 AM »

1600 gives you 66 mph with the .74 OD you have now. If you had 6th gear it would run the same speed at 1375. A little on the low side of happy for a DDEC3 if it was hauling 80,000 lbs but OK running 35-40,000 lbs IMHO. If you have a DDEC5 EGR mess it would be on the high side if not outside of the sweet spot for fuel economy as the EGR motors like to run about 1350 for best economy. With your current setup anything much over 60 mph is going to run you over 1500 and there goes your fuel even if it is a pre 98 engine.

What exactly is their excuse? I got the same runaround with Cummins when I jacked my N14 up to 525 hp/1850 torque. Said my trans was only rated for 1650 so they wouldn't do it. Last time I checked I OWN the engine AND the transmission and everything bolted to them. I took it to my local International dealer and they were more than happy to take my money. See if you can find an MCI or Prevost shop or a truck dealer like Freightliner or Western Star that is certified Allison and see if they will do it.
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2013, 07:35:32 PM »

Here is what the gearing of an Eaton Autoshift (Gen 1) with 3:33 gears and 12r22.5 tires @ 488 revs/mile looks like:
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2013, 07:36:27 PM »

Just to clarify, the left axis is MPH and the bottom axis is RPM.
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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2013, 09:24:31 PM »

Belfert-since you want to cruise a Series 60 no faster then 1600 for best fuel mileage, your present setup of 5th gear will get you 66mph in 5th at 1600. So yes I'd have the 6th gear opened up. Then at 75mph, in 5th you'd be doing 1800 (which isn't bad for the engine-1800 is the continuous rpm rating of the Series 60-just not the best fuel mileage), and in 6th you'd be at 1556rpm at 75-perfect! Good luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2013, 09:54:06 PM »

What exactly is their excuse? I got the same runaround with Cummins when I jacked my N14 up to 525 hp/1850 torque. Said my trans was only rated for 1650 so they wouldn't do it. Last time I checked I OWN the engine AND the transmission and everything bolted to them. I took it to my local International dealer and they were more than happy to take my money. See if you can find an MCI or Prevost shop or a truck dealer like Freightliner or Western Star that is certified Allison and see if they will do it.

The local Freightliner dealer and the local Detroit dealer are owned by the same folks.  They told me some years back that the cost to change the setting to enable 6th gear would be $600.  The kicker is they want a letter from an engineer at the original manufacturer stating it is okay to enable 6th gear.

I'm figuring a shop that isn't Allison authorized that has the proper gear could do it for way less money without a letter.  I usually cruise at 65 MPH per GPS which puts me between 1500 and 1600 RPM.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2013, 04:30:45 AM »

Brian, I wonder if Curt at Central Truck, on Hwy 65 in East Bethel, could enable 6th gear for you. Give him a call, 763-434-4260. I suspect if he can't, he will know someone who can.

Good luck, Sam
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1976 MCI-8TA with 8V92 DDEC II and Allison HT740
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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2013, 06:11:31 AM »

If you want your ECU reprogramed to get the 6th gear it can be done for $100.00 plus shipping.  You will need to get a cin number from one that has the same ECU with the same transmission and ship your ECU with the new number and $200.00 will get it done.

Back to the repower, I know that some don't like the series 50 engines.  I think they are great and where else can you get a good world transmission, 4 stroke engine with all the wiring and parts for four to seven thousand dollars.  If the engine blows, you can get just an engine for about $2,500. 
Another for the MCI you don't have to change anything to put the engine into the coach.  The engine fits the same space as the 8v71 behind the drop down.

If you want to know where to get the ECU done give me a call 863-206-3838. no I don't do them myself.
Jack
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« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2013, 12:28:20 PM »

There is NOTHING wrong with the Series 50. Yes it vibrates at idle, but if you use the proper engine mounts for the engine, it is really not that bad. The only real weak point of the engine is the twin counter rotating balancing shafts below the crankshaft. They need to be replaced every 300,000mi whether they need it or not. If that is done, it is a GREAT bus engine-almost guaranteeing you'll get 10mpg. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2013, 04:47:40 PM »

I struggle with the same issues. The sled runs should take care of your need for speed.

trailconditions.com

I cranked up our 871 to 2400. went from 62 to 72 mph,, yea,,, i would like to be cranking 13, 14oo and be running 75-80 mph. yea the electronics and proprietary software to run these engines is where it is at. I want the double overdrive also.
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Aerodynamic Eagle & MCI 102a3
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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2013, 02:46:26 PM »

Thanks for all the replies ,sorry I didn't get back to you sooner as we were on the road. We just came back to huntsville ont canada .Cold and snow ,had to wash off all the salt $#!% from the drive Sad  Now a problem with heat yes heat ! on the drive from florida I couldnt get temp. over 140-150 f ? I had to jerry-rig my shutters to a switch on the dash and close and open manually to get the temp up to 180f . Outside temp. was as low as 19 f on fri. morning . And to top it off my electronic heat on the bus (red degital read out push botton ) so no heat out of defroster or main heater.( only worked 2 out of 10 times I tried ) , so the floor heat was not as hot as it should have bean and the propane wall heat helped to keep the front warm . Is there a manual heat unit for this bus ? IN the fall I replaced the thermostats for new 170 f ( org were only 2 years old when eng. was rebuilt) Now I installed new ones same as org. t stats could they be in backwards ? Or can they stick open ? since rebuild eng. has run cold . Frustrated as heck!

      thanks    dave                       
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2013, 08:35:37 PM »

Your best bet is an 8V92 DDECIII with a WTECIII HD 6 speed transmission, as a series 60 will be too tall and too long for your chassis.
Global Industrial Automatics does the complete conversions in Tucson, AZ
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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2013, 04:50:31 AM »

a series 60 will be too tall and too long for your chassis.
Global Industrial Automatics does the complete conversions in Tucson, AZ

The height is OK but the length is a challenge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxAFFBcoTQI

Ken
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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2013, 05:00:06 AM »

Height is the problem in a Eagle the length is fine all re powers have something to work around in older buses takes a strong will  and mind to do one plus $$$$ 
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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2013, 08:24:34 AM »

Look at the Cummins ISL. It is available up to 450hp and 1250lb/ft torque-then you can use the shorter 3000MH Allison transmission. I would stay away from any 2 stroke engine for a repower-just not enough good mechanics left that know how to work on the 2 stroke engines. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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