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Author Topic: To DDEC or Not to DDEC, that is the question  (Read 5035 times)
keithshotrodshop
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« on: November 20, 2006, 05:52:37 PM »

After much calling around and various reasearch, I have come up with a 6L71TA DDEC Coach motor for a reasonable price with computer and harness. Any thoughts on this? I have thought much about turboing my stock motor, but this motor is actually cheaper than even the rebuild kit for mine, so I'm thinking swap time. Any advantages/disadvantages to the DDEC? I'm fairly new to the world of big diesel engines.
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tekebird
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2006, 05:59:37 PM »

I vote against the DDEC....too many electrical complexities.......plus I think you will need an electronic trans if going to auto as well.

Your bus is simple....keep it that way and you will be happier...than spening alot of time and Money chasing down codes and minor faults that make your engine not run.

non DDEC..........fuel air and compression and it will go.

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Buffalo SpaceShip
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2006, 06:13:48 PM »

I vote that way, too. I've always had MUI engines, and they're brain-dead simple to diagnose. Having a DDEC might give you slightly better economy, possible cruise control, no fear of a "runaway", etc. But sometimes simplicity is best. Especially at oh-dark-thirty and you're miles from the nearest DD dealer.

Not to mention the harness, senders, and expertise req'd. to install a DDEC in an old coach just might make you swear off bussin'. And we don't want thatCheesy

My $0.02,
Brian B.
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Brian Brown
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2006, 08:35:55 PM »

I'm a DDEC enthusiast, but unless you are an automotive fuel injection guru (same skills for DDEC), I'd pass on the DDEC for what you are trying to accomplish. 
If you use the DDEC, you can have the auto trans deprogrammed.  DD will do this.  They won't turn up the HP.  But the HP should be suitable...probably in the 215 HP range?   
You would want to get the whole donor coach, or access, for  the bits and pieces (radiator)  to complete the swap.  A "T" may be difficult to cool on your coach unless you upgrade the radiator and fan. 
An MUI would be too easy to swap into your coach...they are all similar.  With the DDEC, you gotta run a harness to the front of the bus...and install an accelerator TPS...that's the reason the engine is cheap...no one wants a 6/71 DDEC due to the extra wiring.
Want to check it out good too...it's out of a transit and may have some low RPM and/or road speed llimits that the DDEC dealer will not deprogram.   1800 would make you a little slow I would guess?   
If you cold get the engine and trans (the donor is a LH transverse mounted V drive isn't it) the install would be simple, if the "V" is the same as your drive axle...someone will straighten this out, but I think there are two rear drives with different angles?   Hanging the auto trans would be cool as H$$&LL
DDECs don't cause many problems.   My thoughts are that an MUI would suffer more from wear and tear...but DDEC is complicated to sort out if you have problems, and if you're not attuned to DDEC  you got more than a few minutes with some bailing wire.   DDEC is first thing that gets the blame when one runs out of fuel.   
May I suggest that you call a DD dealer and see if they would be willing to reprogram your ECM for your manual.  If they will, the DDEC wold be cool...if they won't...skip it. 
One very nice thing about DDEC DDs is the TPS throttle...fly-by-wire.  No effort at all.  And, as I believe Brian stated, cruse control can be enabled (probably already is since the road speed limiter is a function of the cruise), so cruise is a freebie.   That extra turbo HP would be cool as ^%%$^&%^* too!!  The end result would be unique.   
Post some pix of your ride! 
JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2006, 10:18:12 PM »

If you have just the engine with the computer, it will be almost impossible to make the engine work with the gauges, sensors, etc.  On the other hand, if you had a crashed vehicle that you could tow home and meticulousy transfer each item one at a time and make sure each works, then go for it.  Otherwise, stick with the mechanically controlled engine. Any of the 71 series Detroits are THEE most reliable engines EVER made!  We will never see the likes of this kind of trouble free engine again since all engines are electronically injected for smog reasons.  Rebuild your engine to factory specs and you'll have an engine that should be good for 300,000 miles.  How many miles do you think you'll put on your bus in your lifetime of travelling?  Most likely not even close to the 300,000 mile mark. The only real advantage to DDEC is perhaps 1 more mpg, which I doubt you'd ever recoup with the low miles we do.  Stay with the mechanical and you'll have many miles and years of happy camping.  Good Luck, TomC
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keithshotrodshop
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2006, 05:32:58 AM »

I appreciate all the info folks. As an idea, does anyone know if you can strip a DDEC motor of all the sensors and like and put the old stuff on, kinda like simply taking fuel injection manifold off a small block chevy and putting a carburated one on? Or is there much more to it?

I do plan to put several hundred thousand miles in my lifetime on my bus, being that I'm only 27, I figure I have a good 100+ years of bussing left Grin And I do plan on doing it all in my 47 silversides. The wife and I were discussing this the other day, by the time we retire, our silversides will be 100 years old! Now that will be cool!

I'm all for saving my stock motor, but rebuild quotes are all coming in over $10,000. If I do everything myself, 3,000-5,000. That means that alot of shops are WAY overcharging for labor in my opinion. When I worked at a chevy dealer, major engine/trans overhauls rarely were more than 20% of the parts cost. These Detroit guys are trying to get 100%+ of the parts cost. That alone is almost enough to have a guy swear off Detroits.

With that said, does anyone know of a shop who will do good work for a fair price within 500 or so miles of Detroit, Michigan? If not, I guess I'll just have to rebuild it myself.

Also, I still believe that my engine is not as "tired" as alot think. I went outiside the other day, it was around 30 degrees out, sprayed a small shot of ether in the intake, and the bus fired right up. The only smoke was white, and I attribute that to the burning coolant. What are the chances I could just pull the head, see if that is cracked or an o-ring is blown, and just fix that problem before doing a major overhaul?
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tekebird
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2006, 07:22:51 AM »

as point of reference on your engines condition......

the 6-71 that I replaced and my DD guy said he was supprised it was still running due to the wear on the cyl walls.......started when below 40 and when below freezing with either.

when cold (air temp) most DD will blow white smoke until they warm up a bit.

keep in mind when getting price quotes from DD dealers....most of these guys working now have never worked on or seen a 2 stroke DD.

give hassinger diesel service in Middleburg PA a call and see what he gives you for a price.  I think my new crate motor, swapping of all the bolt on stuff and bringing to highway specs was less than 12k

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gg04
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2006, 08:20:12 AM »

I have only put about 60,000 miles on the 671ta ddec in my 04...did the swap myself just buy the ddec trouble shooting manual for how to wire and codes...transit motor will be set between 280 to 300 hp....and around 760 torque. or at least thats where all the ones I have had were set. If leaving the original manual trans no settings need changed,,,If going to an auto use the one for the engine .. The ddec motors are just as reliable as the mechanicals...Currently still running original style radiator with 190 thermostats...no overheating even in 110+ weather...DDEC II is not a really complicated system just a few sensors and wireing to keep up with..and the motor always has the correct fuel running down the road...If you want more HP or Torque  just change the main box to one programable...Easiest swap for a old 6 banger GMC.. gg04
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If you personally have not done it  , or saw it done.. do not say it cannot be done...1960 4104 6L71ta ddec Falfurrias Tx
keithshotrodshop
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2006, 11:04:11 AM »

You wouldn't happen to have any pictures of your conversion would you?
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gg04
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2006, 01:56:57 PM »

All I had left are posted under bus pictures on this board just did it...Any questions just ask....gg04
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If you personally have not done it  , or saw it done.. do not say it cannot be done...1960 4104 6L71ta ddec Falfurrias Tx
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2006, 06:01:03 PM »

The heads are different on DDEC engnes...no gov, no racks.   Turbo pistons are different...using parts of the DDEC and MUI probably won't go well.   Turbo engines may not start as easily in cold weather either....little lower compression.
FWIW, the guages on a DDEC II are analog, and if you keep your senders, you could very likely reinstall and use your existing guages.   If you have a mechanical tach, that will have to be replaced, but the oil pressure, water teimp, and charge (ammeter or voltmeter) will work with a DDEC system.  The DDEC has it's own sensors for the ECM...separate from the guages.   Other than a low water, hot water (surge tank), and throttle assembly,  I don't think a DDEC II has any other sensors or separate systems.   If the DDEC engine had an electronic fan control, that would be part of the engine...."should" be part of the engine.    Cruise is just a couple of switches.   On-Off switch isn't special.   
DDECs are 12V neg ground...be sure that your bus is neg ground...some GMs were pos ground. Alternator and starter will resolve the polarity problem.   
There will be some additional wiring to the trans ECM which you won't need...nor will you need the donor trans ECM.   
The ECM is going to "look" for a com link between the engine and transmision...if it cannot find such link, it's going to set a the CEL, indicating a stored fault code.  The trans programming would have to be disabled.   The engine may work fine with the code.  But you couldn't clear the code so the CEL would be lit all the time.   
Still, if I were doing this engine thing, I'd give major consderation to keeping the coach and MUI...however, as one that uses an LT4 powered Astro Van for a daily driver, simplicity has its limits!  Wink
Wish you were nearby, I'd like to watch the "transition"!
JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.”

Ayn Rand
keithshotrodshop
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2006, 08:56:55 PM »

I just recieved the pictures of the 6L71TA DDEC motor from the person I'm thinking about purchasing it from, and it is a tight little motor! I really like how it is set up, and I think it may be an ideal swap into my bus. With that said, I guess I should make myself clear that my bus project is also a hotrod project, and almost everything on it will get a modification of some sort.

My current tach doesn't work anyways, so I'll get a new one. I would like to get some vintage hotrod looking gauges (united speedometer?) to monitor the engine, so I'll just get some that I'll know will work with my engine. Being that this motor is also a silver series is a nice touch, and I've been told that these motors with DDEC can be tuned electronically in the range of 350 horses. I'd love that, and I think it would turn an auto just fine.
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RJ
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2006, 09:52:40 PM »

Keith -

Get the whole powertrain, better yet, get the whole bus, if you can, and you decide to go the DDEC route.

Then you can use the auto trans, as well as the bigger brakes off the transit.  Linda might like that, too. . . Cheesy

4.10 rear end gears are available, for 75+ mph.

With all the other projects you've got, what's another one?

But you'd better hurry - Arcadia & Bussin' 2007 is only five weeks away!!

 Wink
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RJ Long
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2006, 04:50:00 AM »

Reprogramming DDEC II units is done by DD only.  Unless you know someone very well, don't anticipate that they'll bump up the HP.  I doubt it's going to go anywhere near 350 HP in any event.   You may see 6/71T in this range in watercraft, but...that's special.  6/71T is going to be closer to 215 to 235 HP...I believe.  I'm gonna look it up and see.  A good 6V92 is considered bus-maxed at 350 HP.  Could you stuff a 6V92 in there? 
In order to reprogram, DD interfaces with the factory, at which time the ECM downloads it's serial number and application and that is typically what DD uses as parameteres.  They don't make any modifications that would add to the emission load. 
DDEC II must be reprogrammed by DD dealer...they are not "adjustable"....DDEC 1 has a replaceable EEPROM, which is unique to DDEC 1.
An altenator tach would work fine....automotive guages will also work....as long as you don't need matching turbo boost...you understand that part...
My point here is to be sure you make contact with a DD dealer and verify what is available, for reference, regarding reprogramming the ECMs on DDEC units.  The engine would do a decent job at factory settings....and that may be all you get.
Good luck, JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.”

Ayn Rand
keithshotrodshop
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2006, 05:22:24 AM »

Russ, you might think I'm someone else? My wifes name is Katie, and this is my only real project right now. Any case, I've posted the thought of stuffing a 6V92t on other threads on this board, and it's pretty much been shot down. Not saying I won't do it, but I'm exploring all my options.
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uncle ned
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2006, 06:39:36 AM »



keith

   do not give up on the 6v92 swap if you are truly a hot rod person.  I may have heating problems with mine, but the feeling when you can pull out and pass one of the new stick and staples is great. my heating problems are probly all my fault. to much fuel and a heavy foot.Make it to jack's this news year and see several different ways to put the 6v92 into an 04.

Ned Sanders
"huggy bear"

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i pull a big trailer full of dirt bikes
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4104's forever
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gg04
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 08:31:32 AM »

 The factory rating on the 6L71ta ddec II was 300hp and 740tq....as used in transit buses..with one of the 730series trans,,,The eprom is adjustable but only within these limits with the factory code...Most transit agencies seem to have had them turned down,at least on all of the motors I have seen,,,using the eprom from a Ford or GM tractor using the ddec motor will give you adjlustability from D D of up to 350hp using the original injectors....changing injectors and turbo and going to marine will give up to 465hp if you could get rid of the heat....Mine is set at 325hp and I love it...10+mpg and I can run with anyone...These motors are not hard to install and in my mind are definetly worth the time and trouble to install..Have met more 04 owners who would do this swap than any other.after looking at my bus...more hp and torque and keep the original trans...all the other things negative being said are just the same things I  had people tell me when I first thought about this swap...Just didn't work out to be true...You have to seperate fact from fiction...gg04
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If you personally have not done it  , or saw it done.. do not say it cannot be done...1960 4104 6L71ta ddec Falfurrias Tx
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2006, 09:17:28 AM »

borrowed a camera and posted finished install pictures..It all fits ...gg04
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If you personally have not done it  , or saw it done.. do not say it cannot be done...1960 4104 6L71ta ddec Falfurrias Tx
RJ
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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2006, 10:05:23 AM »


Russ, you might think I'm someone else? My wifes name is Katie, and this is my only real project right now. Any case, I've posted the thought of stuffing a 6V92t on other threads on this board, and it's pretty much been shot down. Not saying I won't do it, but I'm exploring all my options.
 

Keith -

Ooops!  Sorry, thought your better half's name was Linda, based on some pic captions on the link you provided.  Same with all the "project cars" that were there. . .

Having a "senior moment" - forgot that the 6V92 was the one attached to the V-730. . . and the 6L71T is a stand-alone.

Now, an off-topic question. . . is Linda single???   Shocked  Grin
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RJ Long
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2006, 10:14:02 AM »


Russ, you might think I'm someone else? My wifes name is Katie, and this is my only real project right now. Any case, I've posted the thought of stuffing a 6V92t on other threads on this board, and it's pretty much been shot down. Not saying I won't do it, but I'm exploring all my options.
 

Keith -



Now, an off-topic question. . . is Linda single???   Shocked  Grin



I Spewed my coffee....LOL  Can't keep a Bus Nut Down!
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keithshotrodshop
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2006, 06:16:48 PM »

Uh, Russ, I still think you are confusing me with someone else. I haven't posted any pictures or links.
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keithshotrodshop
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« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2006, 06:21:01 PM »

Would using a tractor computer also allow me to use a non-computerized trans?
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« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2006, 06:54:44 PM »

Where you gonna find a LH tractor engine?   I would guess that the ECM is rotation specific.   It has to calculate fuel timing parameters.....??  Most transverse (V drive) engine installs are LH...there are some RH 4 strokes hanging in transverse buses, but they have a gizmo that reverses the trans input.   Now an S50 would make a nice powerplant for your hot-rod bus....
You may  find that the DDEC system would work without the trans com-link.  There are only a couple of "shutdown" codes....related to low oil, low water, hot water, and hot oil. Otherwise, it goes.  May need a VSS of some sort....the ECM might have to see road speed to calculate fuel.... load v throttle setting?  Maybe not?   The OEM install used a VSS located in the trans.
gg04....did you use the donor trans..v731?  That would be a good way to fly.  A complete donor is looking better all the time!  The amount of work involved is looking bigger all the time too! Wink     
Your outcome, from a diagnostic perspective, may be better if the engine was installed in a 'stock" condition so that any bugs can be cleaned up before hot-rodding the engine begins.   
Interesting project to ponder! 

JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.”

Ayn Rand
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« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2006, 07:23:35 PM »


Uh, Russ, I still think you are confusing me with someone else. I haven't posted any pictures or links.



Keith -

Me bad. . . Senior Moment.  Time to shake the cobwebs out of the grey matter!  Angry 

Had you and Chaz mixed up. . .  Here's the link I was referring to:

http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/Skulptor/?sc=1&addtype=local

Check out the '56 Chevy on page 6. . .

 Wink

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RJ Long
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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2006, 07:53:13 AM »

I am running a stock 4sp..  with a ford installed ecm off of a right hand engine..the ecm has no clue what direction the engine is running...I just reads information from the senders .. DDEC II is a duel box system with oil pressure,water temp,fuel pressure,turbo boost, and water level sensors..Plus the timming sensors.. water level ,diagnostic plug, and throttle pedal are the three thing normaly not included with engine assemblys and you must have them..These are all the same negative  things  people on the boards (supposedly ddec gurus)told me when I first started looking into this swap for myself...The ford ecm is dealer adjustable for Hp and tq..the factory ecm was too limited by smog programming for a transit bus and only adjustable up to 300hp...No dealer wanted to touch it even installed in a older body.. So I went with combo I am now running...It was set at 325hp when I got it, we have turned it up and down and the original setting seems to be the best for power and milage..Looked into series 50 and cummins swaps at the same time...both are rated at the same hp and torque as the 6L71 ta ddec....The series  50 offers better milage if you are wanting to run an auto trans..But  is not a swap for those not strong in all fabricating talents(look at bernies engine trans swap) not an simple install... gg04
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If you personally have not done it  , or saw it done.. do not say it cannot be done...1960 4104 6L71ta ddec Falfurrias Tx
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« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2006, 01:08:43 PM »

I did the swap to a 6-71 TA  in my 04 and happy with the ddec.  I can only get 275 hp,  dd guy said i couldn't get any more?  Can I get more hp?
thanks
edwin b 
4104-250
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2006, 03:28:15 PM »

On that ford ecm, how do you adjust the settings, is there a knob?
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« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2006, 09:07:58 AM »

As with any 6-71, you can reconfigure the block and head to any arrangement you want.  Same with rotation.  So buy the engine that you need, and change it to your configuration.  If the engine only will go to 275hp, probably has an injector restriction.  375hp is not unheard of from the 6-71 for over the road use.  But you need to be careful of too much horsepower with the 4 spd manual since the engine is lugged at every shift.  300hp probably would be a good upper limit.  Whereas the automatic rarely goes below 1,400rpm, a higher horsepower could be used.  Just make sure of having enough cooling capability.  Running a second radiator or an air to air intercooler would be a good idea.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2006, 06:39:52 AM »

I appreciate the thought. I actually plan to swap from a manual. The motor I am looking at buying is a V-drive coach motor, so there is no need to change the rotation. From my reasearch, 6-71's are not all nessesarily interchangeable. All of the boat and truck 6-71s I've seen have had the blower on the right side of the block, instead of the left, so this could cause some great clearance issues. After speaking with several Detroit guys, they confirmed this, that the coach block is specific to coaches because of this, however there are a few coach motors running around in industrial applications such as generators and other large equipment. Yes, it's true that you can reverse the rotation, but this wouldn't do much good if the blower is still on on the wrong side.

Also, the later coach heads have the exhaust on the left side of the head. I'm not sure if this can be turned around the other way, but I actually like this setup better, because I can not get to it on my silversides being on the right side of the head and up against the bulkhead.
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« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2006, 08:48:58 AM »

Keith, (assuming your name, hope I'm right)
You need to listen to gg04. He has done it, is knowledgeable about, & of course has actual answers. Like he stated, he got alot of opinions, assumptions, & old wives tales that are just that, which could have prevented him from doing something that he is now very happy with. I have two XL's that were converted to DDEC's, no sweat. The drivers beat the hell out of those buses over three hundred days a year, & there are no issues, especially related to anything electronic. There are lots of things that I do with buses, that people say cannot be done, that I do everyday & have been doing for years. You are lucky for gg04, actual information from actual experience.
Good Luck & have fun
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« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2006, 11:44:25 AM »

Kieth
 As Tom C. said a inline 671 can be configured to anything you want it to be. The blower can be on the left or right, the exhaust manifold can be on the left or right, and the crankshaft rotation can also be changed. This is the most versitable engine ever made. You can change any of these configurations on all inline 671. I have heard some of the later ones the crankshaft had the oil hole drilled at a angle so they are left or right hand specific. All it takes is work or money to change. You need a 1940's or 1950's manual you will be amazed at what they did with these engines. I am sorry, I really have to question the info from your DD guys on this one.
I researched for several years before repowering. GG04's info is by far the easiest swap. Anything else will require a lot of work. When I did my 8V71TA into a 4104 it took me 2 months of full time work. This was after I had already overhauled the engine, made many of the mounts, brackets and etc. I had the old engine out, everything cleaned up, and the new engine installed in 4 days but it is all of the little stuff that takes time. I only have my 8V set for 330 hp. it performs very well. Hot Rod!!!!
I would use the DDEC 671TA in your bus in a heart beat. Just my opinion.
I went with the mechanical engine because I am comfortable working on it. I only have book knowledge on the DDEC engines.
I like Busted have also done several things to buses the experts said could not be done. My first question is "Why Can't it be done?" this is where I usually do not get a good answer.
Craig C.
 
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Craig C
4104 8V71TA/V730
keithshotrodshop
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« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2006, 08:43:52 PM »

I know exactly where you guys are coming from about the impossible. I am a full believer that nothing is impossible, it just takes time, money, and sweat.

As for the blocks, google 6-71s and compare. The blower casting is on opposite sides between trucks and busses, and not interchangeable. I have all the manuals already for the engine too.

I think there has been alot of confusion as to what ddec motor I am talking about. I am talking about an early 90's transit coach model (yes, they exist, I've seen them) with a turbo 6-71. I have talked to several who have done this swap and they all seem to love it. I know it is probably my best option, I was just looking for specifics as to the swap that I may want to be careful of.
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« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2006, 10:19:48 AM »

Kieth
The blower housing on the Left or Right side is interchangeable. You have to completely disassemble the engine and rotate the block 180 degrees. The 671 is not like a car engine it does not care which end of the block is pointed toward the bellhousing end. There are 4 basic configuartions of the 671 in right turn and the same in left turn. engines  You can assemble 8 different inline 671 engines out of the same pile of parts. The 8 digit code on the block will tell you in what configuration it left the factory.

You are correct in the fact that life will be much easier for you to get a engine already configured for a bus.

Good luck

Craig C
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« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2006, 06:52:22 AM »

Edwin , I could find no one who would touch the transit ECM..your stuck with whatever the transit company had it set at just about and the factory settings were from low 200's to just 300hp....The ecm from a right hand tractor is adjustable but it must be set for a left hand installation,,,I just carried it to a marine dealer and got it set for a left hand engine in my "live aboard"  (fireing order is reversed in left versus right)..after that had no problems getting HP and Torque set...gg04
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If you personally have not done it  , or saw it done.. do not say it cannot be done...1960 4104 6L71ta ddec Falfurrias Tx
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« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2006, 02:09:34 PM »

gg04,

You never answered, how do you set the horsepower and torque on the tractor computer. Is it done at the dealer, or can you do it yourself?
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« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2006, 02:21:15 PM »

 Sorry missed the Huh Is dealer set....Find one you can communicate with and MAKE FRIENDS... To me marine dealers are the easiest to deal with and still work on 2strokes all the time lots of knowledge there..will more than pay for the time involved...All seem to like being treated like you would treat yourself instead of just an employee...Get them interested in your projects..most are just car people like us..gg04 
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If you personally have not done it  , or saw it done.. do not say it cannot be done...1960 4104 6L71ta ddec Falfurrias Tx
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