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Author Topic: Automatic Pain in my Side  (Read 964 times)
Seangie
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« on: May 01, 2013, 05:32:26 AM »

The day has finally come where I need to deal with this Automatic Override and be through with it once and for all.

For starters,  here are my previous posts about this-
http://www.BusConversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=25197.0
http://www.BusConversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=24886.0

A quick recap is that this has happened previously and I got it running again by finding a loose wire to the automatic override.  When I did get it to start again, once the bus aired up and turned off, it would not start again until all the air was let out.

The coach ran perfectly fine all day yesterday and this am when I tried starting it up, it would turn but no smoke and no start (indicating no fuel?)

 I am pulling the automatic override out today.  I really have no clue what I am doing so Ill be posting here regularly with pictures and diagrams to try and figure this out.  Hopefully Ill be helping someone else learn along the way with me.  If anyone out there could help me out as I move along...I'd be grateful.

Bus is a 1984 Eagle 10S.  Engine is a 6v92TA mechanical.  There is NO DDEC. The wiring is a mess and nothing is labeled.  I'll post some pics shortly along with a diagram of how its supposed to be wired...I think Smiley

Stay tuned.

-Sean

[url=http://www.herdofturtles.org]www.herdofturtles.org [/URL]
1984 Eagle Model 10S

PS - Here is a link to the documentation for the Automatic Override -
http://www.alliedsystems.com/pdf/Wagner/Forms/80/80-333.pdf
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 05:42:26 AM by Seangie » Logged

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bevans6
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2013, 05:47:08 AM »

My first thought is to find out what is causing the no-smoke condition, and start with that.  Two ideas - a fuel cut-off solenoid or the engine stop lever which could be auto-activated by controlling it's skinner valve, but only if there is air pressure.  In any case, those are the only two ways to stop a mechanical DD from running - don't give it any fuel to start with, or put the racks in no-fuel position, and the PDF in your other thread implies that both are options, although they call the air-operated one a Kysor valve.

If it is a fuel cut-off solenoid, I'd personally simply remove it and replace it with a 1/4 turn mechanical valve, if there isn't already one of those.  Then I'd remove the control box and terminate all the wiring to it.

Brian
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 05:49:24 AM by bevans6 » Logged

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Seangie
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2013, 06:32:54 AM »

Brian,

Thanks.  Perfect information for me.

Here are some pics to help out -

This is the mess I am dealing with.  The Skinner on the left goes to what I call "the kicker" which I believe is the engine stop (puts the racks in a no fuel position?)


The other Skinner valve goes to a solenoid that opens and closes what I believe you said was the fuel cut off valve. Here is a picture of that -


So I am going to disconnect the solenoid from the fuel shutoff valve and see if that does the trick and work back from there.

-Sean

www.herdofturtles.org
1984 Eagle Model 10S
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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2013, 07:03:10 AM »

I suspect that the valves are set up so that if there is no control voltage to them, the engine is commanded off.  You want the engine stop lever skinner valve to be controlled by a switch of some sort, usually it is set so that if the engine run switch is on, there is voltage there and the air cylinder is empty so the engine can run, and as soon as the engine run switch is turned off voltage is removed, the skinner valve goes to default which is to let air out to the cylinder which presses on the stop lever which puts the rack in no-fuel and stops the engine.  You definitely need to keep that capability, but like I mentioned I would physically remove the fuel control deal, whether air controlled via a skinner or not, just completely bypass it.

You have a clue, anyway - the engine not starting until air is removed is classic stop-lever if the control voltage to the skinner valve is screwed up.  If the fuel control is electric and not air controlled, then the fact that the engine starts after air is removed points at the stop lever as the current problem.

Brian
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1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
Seangie
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2013, 08:15:52 AM »

Brian,

Spot on.  Pulled the stop lever off and she started right up. 


Now the trick is figuring out if the Skinner valve is at fault or the automatic override is screwed up.  Also I need to figure out if the override is the only switch controlling the Skinner valve. In order to do that I need to start labeling these wires and checking voltages.  Any ideas for a switch that could replace the override?  Fun!

Brian, thanks again for your help.  Im almost starting to make sense of it all.  Almost Smiley

-Sean


www.herdofturtles.org
1984 Eagle Model 10S
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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2013, 08:26:56 AM »

I love that the first page of instructions for the override (in all caps) it says not to install in engine compartment if temps are over 165 and mine is installed right above the Turbo.


www.herdofturtles.org
1984 Eagle Model 10S
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2013, 08:44:18 AM »

I would find a circuit that was directly controlled only by the engine run switches.  If the engine run switches (both front and rear) are on, then the bus should be allowed to run.  I don't know how your bus is wired, but if you have a schematic, I would follow that.  Try to get it stock, in other words.

Brian
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Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2013, 08:56:28 AM »

Only takes 1 hot and a ground and you can pickup the hot from the switch to the override wire it to the skinner valve check the ground on the skinner and be done with it you will fight the the black box for ever

 I doubt you find a schematic for that in the Eagles manual but some do have a supplement page those shutdowns are well documented to leave you on the side of road when least expected lol
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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2013, 12:43:36 PM »

So....another task conquered.


My biggest challenge was trying to figure out how the PO had it wired.  After about 30 minutes of going nowhere and a lunch date with my wife, I just figured out which wire went hot when the ignition was turned on and which wire was hot for the fast idle,  cut them and hooked them up accordingly and the rest is a bus driving off into the sunset.

Thanks Cliff and Brian for making this easier than it would have been.

-Sean
www.herdofturtles.org
1984 Eagle Model 10S
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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2013, 12:49:29 PM »

you gotta love a good result!

Brian
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Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
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1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
RJ
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« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2013, 05:55:15 PM »

Sean -

The best part of this adventure was lunch with Angie!

  Grin
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