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Author Topic: clutch in 4106  (Read 3490 times)
jimsflx
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« on: May 08, 2013, 02:39:49 PM »

just put new clutch in 4106 and it will not go into gear when it is ideling but shut it off and put in gear and restart it shifts great when it is setting still and running it does not release. put it in gear and it will not come out of 1 st gear. or go into reverse. eny thoughts? thanks jim
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
Utahclaimjumper
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 03:44:31 PM »

 Obviously its not releasing properly,, are you using a "mousetrap" or other "helper" devise?? >>>Dan  (Did you install a "spot clutch",,full face type or a wet clutch??)
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Utahclaimjumper 
 EX 4106 (presently SOB)
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2013, 04:36:30 PM »

no mouse trap or other device. got the clutch from tampa cluctch they have done these before. a friend of mine put it in that might have been a mistake? he has done gm and eagles before. you are right it is not releasing.my friend swares he put it in right i did pay him for doing this. if you start it in gear and start moving it shifts fine. will not goe into gear when idling. thanks jim
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
Utahclaimjumper
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2013, 05:13:17 PM »

 If you have the engine running and push the clutch to the floor,, at what point does it begin to "take up" or ingage??
 If its near the floor, than it can be adjusted up for more release,, if at the top of the stroke that you have another problem.>>>Dan
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Utahclaimjumper 
 EX 4106 (presently SOB)
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OneLapper
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2013, 05:33:36 PM »

The clutch finger heights are off.  BTDT.  I measured twice and STILL got it wrong!!  I finally converted the measurements into millimeters and, yup, it was off. 

I don't know if you can adjust the finger heights while the tranny is installed.  I'm sure anything is possible, but measuring would be the challenge.

Mark
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OneLapper
1964 PD4106-2853
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jimsflx
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2013, 06:41:27 PM »

dan we ajusted the peddle so it would engage both ways,doesnt make any differants. mark we have done the ajustment,yes you can do the fingers from the bottom. luke says 1&38ths from the finger tips to flywheel. so we have tryed to get maesure but still will not release. thanks jim
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 05:35:30 AM »

 Are the parts you have installed now the previous parts?? or have you replaced with new parts??  Were the fibre plates relined, and with what??(Heavy duty organic or Kevlar??)  The center driven plate could be binding in the splines and the fibre plates can be installed only one way.>>>Dan  ( I just installed a new clutch in Red Riders 4106 two weeks ago and it works like butter) You may have a trans removal in your near future     YUCK OUCH !!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 05:40:13 AM by Utahclaimjumper » Logged

Utahclaimjumper 
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 10:12:20 AM »

Did you measure the discs and center plate?  IIRC I measured everything after the machine shop resurfaced the flywheel & plate.   That affects the stacked height, which I had to determine if it was all within spec.   I took careful notes when I put all together, just don't recall what I did with those notes!!!  Must be in my bus receipts pile.   
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OneLapper
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 10:25:46 AM »

If the pressure plate was resurfaced, it will need to be shimmed.
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 10:49:15 AM »

 If the pressure plate or the flywheel had been resurfaced, his problem would be the opposite,, slipping for lack of pressure..
 The entire clutch must be assembled, then adjust (if necessary) the release fingers. This process assures the correct clutch pressure and release movement.>>>Dan  ( It appears the mechanic has not done this job in the past,, time to have a talk with him)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 10:51:16 AM by Utahclaimjumper » Logged

Utahclaimjumper 
 EX 4106 (presently SOB)
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 10:53:45 AM »

I really have a hard time with people fighting the 4106 clutch me I would toss the flywheel and use a different flywheel and change over to a mushroom type clutch they work good in a 40 ft bus one should be fine in a light weight 4106 would make life so much easier for you GM and no Luke or Ted don't agree lol
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2013, 11:10:02 AM »

I really have a hard time with people fighting the 4106 clutch me I would toss the flywheel and use a different flywheel and change over to a mushroom type clutch they work good in a 40 ft bus one should be fine in a light weight 4106 would make life so much easier for you GM and no Luke or Ted don't agree lol

I have to agree, the dual disk setup is less than elegant solution nowadays. The South Bend clutch on my Dodge dually is rated to 1100lbft and its as smooth as silk.  You would think someone has made an improved design in the last 50 years!

The thought of switching to a completely different setup never even occurred to me.   Next time! 
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OneLapper
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Utahclaimjumper
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2013, 12:47:30 PM »

  The one & three eighths inch measurement is from the finger contact points to the OUTBOARD FACE OF THE PRESSURE PLATE HOUSING,,,,not the flywheel... and that measurement is made with the clutch fully assembled to the flywheel.>>>D
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Utahclaimjumper 
 EX 4106 (presently SOB)
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RJ
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2013, 04:31:39 PM »

I really have a hard time with people fighting the 4106 clutch me I would toss the flywheel and use a different flywheel and change over to a mushroom type clutch they work good in a 40 ft bus one should be fine in a light weight 4106 would make life so much easier for you GM and no Luke or Ted don't agree lol

Fine, Clifford.

Now really help us out by providing part numbers and sources for all the components necessary to make the change-over.

 Wink
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RJ Long
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jimsflx
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2013, 05:28:35 PM »

thanks guys. he is pulling the trans tomorrow,these where all knew parts. we replaced everything. i am with you rj i had no idea you could change to a newer type clutch, i would do that in a heartbeat.
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 06:09:22 AM »

Should be straight forward swap RJ after you toss the slotted flywheel from the GM and replace it with a flat surface flywheel from another 8v71 the throw out bearing will be a off the self item a little linkage modification you are there IMO

 Bet you a Pepsi I could do a change in less than a day at my age and have a better set up without all the springs and linkage on what you call a mouse trap ( a good name) that is one ugly setup to make a clutch work watching Dan set Red Ryders mouse trap up made me wonder how many fingers has that rig bitten off over the years Undecided

 Fwiw Eagles had a double disk clutch pull type with a flat flywheel most if not all of those have been changed over to a single disk mushroom type so easy on the leg and for adjustments

 Anyone that can adjust a automobile clutch can adjust one hell you don't even need a type measure or special gauge, like Mark said times have changed

 I know most of you GM guys don't really care for change on those buses I hear all the time it worked for 50 years lol
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 07:33:09 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 08:05:27 AM »

Should be straight forward swap RJ after you toss the slotted flywheel from the GM and replace it with a flat surface flywheel from another 8v71

That seems easy enough. . . A "flat surface" flywheel should be fairly common in truck boneyards.

. . .the throw out bearing will be a off the self item

GM busnut at the local NAPA store: "I need a throw out bearing."  Pimple-faced kid at his computer: "What's it fit?"  GM busnut: "I don't know, Clifford says it's an off the shelf item."  PFK says: "I've got a whole aisle full of throw out bearings, which one do you want?"  GM busnut: "One that fits a single disk mushroom."  PFK: "What have YOU been smokin', mister?"

 Huh
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RJ Long
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2013, 08:29:19 AM »

You stay out of those places RJ there is not much to choose from in throw out bearings in the truck and bus world one will work that is pretty much a standard size of input shaft on a GM it's nothing special you do know a mushroom clutch can be a pull type or a push type ? 

It will work I'm pretty sure everything that fits the 4501 clutch will work on the 4106
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 08:40:51 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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jimsflx
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2013, 02:04:26 PM »

my gm book has a chapter for the air assist clutch that was a option on the coach. mine  has a mouse trap and it has been altered very badley. do not see how it could help? so it is not going back on. my book does not show one. would like a air assist but cannot find one. thanks jim
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
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« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2013, 05:59:58 PM »

I must be one of the lucky ones. Dan West (utahclaimjumper) set my clutch and "mousetrap" up when we changed the engine. It works so softly that my 140 lb and 72 year old legs don't even care. My 06 is so easy to drive after these changes that I'll have to go for a couple of thousand miles ride just to enjoy it.
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Mike AKA; Red Rider 4106-1885
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« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2013, 06:24:13 PM »

I didn't think yours was that bad with the old setup Mikey never drove it after the change though
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bs4104
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« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2013, 08:02:53 AM »

Clifford: Mike had some good help finding one of the better (clutch) laying around, You know how things in Pahrump just don't go bad!!!  Bruce
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 09:19:52 AM by bs4104 » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2013, 08:34:29 AM »

Only time will tell Bruce that engine had some rust when I pulled a inspection covers but the rings still had the spring back he may be lucky in the long run and may not be so lucky  

There was somethings I would have replaced while it out that didn't cost that much like the old rotten blower rubber coupling and governor linkage boots between the heads and blower  but he was told that the blower boot wasn't available any longer by who I have no idea 

I would have gave him a blower end cover to change over to the new style 1 clamp seal but they didn't want to pull the blower

 I have him a new blower boot and linkage boots for when he pulls the blower to fix the leaks lol 10 years sitting in the back of dump truck under a tarp will take a toll Marvel Oil is good stuff but not that good, after installing new injectors it did sound good I admit and the price was right, Mikey is a good guy I hope it does work out for him 

 

good luck
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 08:41:14 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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Red Rider
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« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2013, 12:58:57 PM »

Hey Clifford,

Thanks for getting the air compressor off the old engine for me. Sorry we missed Doyle. Looks like a nice job being done on that Eagle.

I thought you might like to know that our trip to Avi was flawless. I used a little under a 1/2 gal. of oil during the 600 mile run. The average speed was 60 MPH including all the grades en-route. Absolutely no heating issues even though it was 97* when we left Laughlin.

Thanks again for all your help.
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Mike AKA; Red Rider 4106-1885
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« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2013, 03:12:15 PM »

redrider, can you post a picture of that mouse trap? mine looks like crap some one sure messed it up. the top springs look like they are valve springs. i am not going to put it back on till i can get it back the way it sould be. thanks jim
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
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« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2013, 03:25:41 PM »

to tell the truth -- I m definitely technologically challenged. I'll have to get one of the Grand Kids to handle that chore.

You are correct about the looks of that contraception. That main spring will cause you to be very careful. When Dan set mine however, it was all assembled and be simply adjusted it. I say simply because he knew what he was doing. I'll try and get him to add to this thread.
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Mike AKA; Red Rider 4106-1885
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« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2013, 03:50:22 PM »

thanks mike, i am the same way. i would like to use it. i do not know if the mouse trap was  some thing from gm or after market. thanks jim
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
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« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2013, 06:59:39 PM »

can someone give me a phone no.for a shop or person that knows about 4 speeds in a 4106. i need to talk not type. thanks jim
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
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« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2013, 02:21:24 PM »

can we get back to the post? we have check every thing and it still will not go into gear. thanks jim
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
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« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2013, 04:40:36 PM »

What's wrong with Luke or the guy in Ca Ted the expert on GM buses I do know if some builder puts the certain type lining on backwards they won't release on any bus been through that with a clutch in a Eagle before or if a pilot bushing or bearing is bad in the crankshaft end it will cause it not to release

good luck
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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2013, 05:39:24 AM »

 Hey Jim,, catch us up on the clutch saga,, you got it figured out yet??>>>Dan
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Utahclaimjumper 
 EX 4106 (presently SOB)
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jimsflx
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« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2013, 04:28:27 PM »

dan, we are taking it up to ray cox south of atlanta. we will be there sunday evening and he is going to look at it monday morning. we hope to be on our way to michigan after that. thanks  jim
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jim&roenie seagraves sebring fl. 4106-3083
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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2013, 05:50:34 PM »

 Hope everything works out,, Michigan is my "home state", been about 4 years since I've been there.>>>Dan
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Utahclaimjumper 
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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2013, 06:49:23 PM »

dan, what part of mi? we where in kalamazoo area jim
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