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Author Topic: Series 60 in a 05 Eagle  (Read 3660 times)
Seville
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« on: May 14, 2013, 09:59:54 AM »

Hey Folks,
I have a chance to buy a 1973 model 05 Eagle entertainer coach. The coach looks great and has been well maintained.
I would like to put a Series 60 and a B500 trans in it.
It currently has an 8V71 with a manual transmission.

I have two questions.
How much would a remanufactured series 60 and B500 trans cost, roughly ?
Is this even possible to put this power plant in a 1973 model 05 Eagle ?

I have a very good mechanic who would be helping me do the work.

What do you all think ?
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luvrbus
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 10:06:27 AM »

Lot of work but tons of 05 and 10 Eagles have a series 60 and different transmissions not many with the B500 though, check out Eric Browns on www.eaglesinternational.net in the project section also Ed Brenner is just staring a 60 series implant with the 4000 Allison in a 05 he is on the same site

good luck
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Seville
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 10:16:11 AM »

Thank You for the quick reply Cifford!  I was hoping you would chime in.
What transmission would you recomend ?
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 10:17:44 AM »

Out of curiosity, how long is the Allison 4000 tranny? Is it much shorter if any than the 740?

Sent from my GT-I9300
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Gary Seay (location Alaska)
1969 MCI MC-6 unit# 20006
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more pics and information here     "  www.my69mci-6.blogspot.com  "
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 01:20:29 PM »

Gary,the 4000mh is 3 and1/2 inch shorter than a 740 either will work in a Eagle with a 60 series gearing is the problem on a Eagle with a drop box folks like Jim use the auto shift 10 or 12 speeds to over come that problem then some use a 4:11 with the B500 or 4000 MH and a 3:33 rear gear with the 740 

Then we have a few like Sonnie and Wayne that change a Eagle over to a tag and use what ever gear they need or some use a 747 Allison it is short BTW with out the drop box and can use any gear also
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 01:25:21 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2013, 04:00:23 PM »

Changing to a 4 stroke is a big challenge.  Others have touched on gearing.  For most four strokes, you will need to plumb a charge air cooler, fabricate all the tons of plumbing (air intake, cooling water, turbo to CAC plumbing and exhaust).  You will also need to make/have made the cables to the electronic stuff in the driver's area.  Lastly, the big issue with the Series 60 (and other big 4 strokes is that they are tall and you need to fabricate a raised bed area.

Smaller 4 strokes (most popular is the Cummins M11/ISM can be installed without the bed raise.

I have quite a bit of documentation in my project pages (see signature).  I also wrote a 3 part series in BCM a couple of years ago.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2013, 05:21:37 PM »

So, Jim, was the engine swap in your bus worth the trouble and expense? 

--Geoff
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Geoff
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 05:53:43 PM »

So, Jim, was the engine swap in your bus worth the trouble and expense? 

--Geoff

Which time?

Sorry the debil made me do it!
Grin  BK  Grin
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robertglines1
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 06:00:22 PM »

Bad B-K! It sure is impressive set up that Jim did and his write up helped me allot in my set up with Autoshift. Thanks again Jim!  Bob
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 06:14:00 PM »

Geoff, depends on who you ask Grin.  Simple answer is Yes.  Clifford gives me a hard time about my fuel saving calculations that don't offset the need to buy a second Series 60 Angry Grin.

As you recall, you helped me a lot to get my 6V92 up to 350HP specs.  Then I took it in to have it smog tested (required dyno test in the Denver area) and on the way home the water temp. was well within limit one second and then huge amounts of white smoke the next second.  Pretty sure the emission folks did not set up a fan on the radiator and overheated the engine and that resulted in a cracked head.

When the engine failed, I did a lot of thinking.  I could have lived with the 350 HP but it would have been very marginal in our mountains and I had planned to tow some big vehicles (largest was my service truck at 9000).  But for the cost of having the engine rebuilt (estimated $8K which might have been low), I purchased a Series 60 and Eaton AutoShift.  I had to add maybe $2-4K more in parts and endless hours to get everything bolted together.  Did all the work myself.  

If I had had to pay $40K to have someone do it, the answer would surely be different.

Unfortunately I was stupid enough to believe that all Series 60 engines are million mile engines (this from a person who had to deal with a lot of statistics in my career Grin).  I got about 60K miles out of first engine (about 700K miles total as I recall) and then had cylinder sleeve sinking problems.  My second engine is fantastic and the bus drives like a dream.  Hardly knows what hills are.

In my engine conversion article for BCM I estimated my fuel savings as follows:

Quote
The only factual data I can present is my own situation.  Our bus and toad weigh over 46K pounds (large toad).  I have driven the coach over 52K miles and have averaged 7.7 MPG as measured by the SilverLeaf (directly off the engine ECM).  I did not have any experience with the bus at this weight with the 6V92, but my best guess is that I would have gotten less than 6 MPG (remember we travel over the mountains a lot and weigh more than many buses).  If the 6 MPG is close to being correct, my mileage improvement is close to  30%.  Over the 52K + miles, I have used  about 6,800 gallons.  If I had used 30% more fuel that would have been an extra 2,000 gallons.  Even at a conservative $2.50 per gallon, that would amount to a $5000 savings.  

I felt pretty good that the fuel savings had "offset" part of the cost of the conversion -- until Clifford made the unkind observation Grin

Jim

« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 08:33:03 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 06:16:50 PM »

OK, while I was typing my minutiae filled post, BK had to rub it in.  Now I have to get another hex doll to put pins in Grin

Bob, thanks for the kind words.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 06:31:05 PM »

I was at Coles place today his son is installing a MBE 4000 in his Eagle has a DDEC Vl system and they were changing that to a lV for emissions  

He said the reason he was doing the MBE 4000 was  because everyone has a series 60,Cummins or Cat he just wanted to be different  Cheesy and the price was right dad gave it to him from a wreck Freightliner so out came the factory installed M-11

Sorry Jim that was cruel on my part
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 06:36:10 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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Seville
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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 07:23:13 PM »

Very interesting input. Thanks guys! From what I gather, it would be a lot of work but worth it if done right and hopefully within a reasonable budget. I am going to investigate further and see if it's an option.

This coach is in absolutely wonderful condition inside and out, with a powerful drivetrain it would be a real stunner.
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2013, 07:02:00 AM »

Jim I'm sorry I really shouldn't have done it!

Like I said the debil made me do it.
Grin  BK  Grin
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TomC
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2013, 07:22:55 AM »

There is no doubt that the pre 2002 Series 60 is an excellent engine (pre EGR). The S60 is also a physically very large engine. Even though I'm a Detroit fan, I would probably use a Cummins M11/ISM that can be turned up to 500hp for RV use. It is smaller physically, 600lbs lighter, and hundreds, if not thousands of trash trucks and buses used them with the Allison HD4060 behind it. Granted the engine will be of lower horsepower, but installing a "new" engine in the bus, have it rebuilt up to the RV rating. Another engine to consider is the Caterpillar C12. Up to 470hp and 1650lb/ft torque. About the same size as the ISM.
If you can, look at the size difference in the bus of a Series 60 and the Cummins ISM-you'll see what I'm talking about. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2013, 08:35:12 AM »

BK, now you are on the same list as Clifford Cheesy

I need to clarify part of an earlier post (modified it).  When I said that I got 60K miles out of the first Series 60 I need to clarify that mileage was on top of the original miles (think about 700K).  There were signs that the truck/engine had not received the best care.  Unfortunately, it was the only one available at the time.

The second engine had a DD rebuild about 240K ago.  Got to talk to the owner of the truck.  He sent me a copy of the receipt.  I also contacted the dealer who did the rebuild and he sent me the service record for the truck - an owner/operator truck.

I noted on the receipt that they had not replaced the bull gear.  I took one of the timing cover plates off and checked side movement (none detected).  I will make that check periodically. 

There are several Eagles with the M11/ISM and the owners are very satisfied.  The ones that I am aware of use an HT740 and gear with the 3.36 rear end ratio.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
luvrbus
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2013, 10:17:20 AM »

In today's converted bus market why would one even attempt a engine swap is beyond me the bank here in Anahuac Tx sold a 1998 XLL Prevost Vantare conversion 59,240 mile kept inside the rice farmers barn it's entire life clean coach all the goodies needed about 8 grand in tires the high dollar Michelins 315's were rotten 

Only 4 bidders including mine the bank let it go for 43,125.00 dollars to another rice farmer his bid was over 12 grand higher than the next bidder little over 20,000 higher than mine 

At that price why would anyone want the pain and agony of engine conversion in a older bus ? they are out there just dig deep and pay attention to your local paper that is where one finds the bargains I have learned over the years
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Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2013, 01:22:51 PM »

  Geoff, depends on who you ask Grin.  Simple answer is Yes.  Clifford gives me a hard time about my fuel saving calculations that don't offset the need to buy a second Series 60 Angry Grin

    Hey, if you buy a second Series 60, you double your fuel savings right?  Sounds like a good plan to me.   Grin

BH  NC   USA
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2013, 05:11:56 PM »

Jim--

Keep on bussin!


--Geoff
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Geoff
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2013, 05:57:14 PM »

Jim--

Keep on bussin!


--Geoff

 Huh Huh Huh

Suspect that was not a huge endorsement on my engine conversion Wink.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2013, 06:13:52 PM »

 It wasn't too bad coming from a 2 stroke guy Jim,

Ot but yesterday when Cole and I went to visit friends at Stewart and Stevenson in Houston I decided fast the DD13 and DD15 would not be in my future those things were lined up like people at a single porta/can at a county fair scattered all over the shop
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« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2013, 09:27:05 PM »

Most of the problems with those new engines is emission controls related, EGR valves, coolers, DPF etc. If you could buy one without all the junk on it I think they would be a pretty good unit. Common rail injection quiets them down considerably.

Kevin
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2013, 06:38:55 AM »

luvrbus,

You ask "....why would one even attempt a engine swap...."? I think I can answer that. A lot of us posters on this board like to do projects, some smaller, some larger. If you like your current bus, it meets your needs except for the power train, and you enjoy projects, it makes sense to me. From reading all your posts for several years, I think you are in the category of enjoying projects. It seems I read recently that you are doing an engine swap yourself in an H Prevost, putting a C15 in where there was a Series 60. I know you could afford to buy a complete bus if you chose to. So, is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? Just wondering!

Good luck, Sam
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2013, 08:39:19 AM »

Since I work with Freightliner and the Detroit DD13, 15, 16, I can give you first hand experience. First of all-it is the most fuel efficient engine made, period. Especially now since they've revised the DD15 and taken the turbo compounder off (a second turbo gear driven into the engine that creates up to 50hp for free on a hill climb from exhaust pressure) and added a cluthched thermostatically controlled water pump (that stays on if the clutch fails) since it was found the water pump takes up to 5hp to run. The engineers found that yes the turbo compounder saved fuel when under full throttle, but all other times it actually draws horsepower. So taking it off, the engine is actually more fuel efficient overall. The turbo compounder remains on the DD16 that covers 475hp-600hp and 1750-2050lb/ft torque.

Yes there are a lot of sensers, EGR cooler, on the engine. And the DD engines are sensitive to how you change the oil-but most of those issues have been addressed. The big thing now is seeing head gasket problems since at one corner of the head, there is a head bolt "missing" creating a weakness. And at the engine assembly plant, the head is installed with a hydraulic torquing machine that torques all bolts at the same time. Hence, once the head is removed, it is hard to duplicate the same clamping forces-thus creating head leaks within only a few thousand miles later.

Bottom line-most reliable engine made and gets the best fuel mileage-the pre 2002 Series 60. Cummins ISM, Caterpillar C12 without EGR are excellent engines too. Surprisingly-the Series 50 4 cylinder is also an excellent engine-just have to have the proper soft engine mounts and replace the balancing shafts every 300k mi. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2013, 10:11:55 AM »

The bus is only 9 years old 2002 titled as 2004,  Sam the 14L 60 series has a hole in the side you can throw a basket ball through not like I am starting from scratch for the piping and other goodies more of a replacement I have a 14l- 60 series I could go back but I like yellow paint 

The C-15 won't require much fabrication different from the 60 series as far as I can see but I am checking with the emissions  people we are getting almost as bad in Az as CA about changing engines no need for the people to cut a hole in my series 60 it is already there lol
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« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2013, 07:15:17 AM »

The Caterpillar 3406/C15 with single turbocharger are good engines. My preference is the 3406 mechanically injected (just happens to be the engine in my truck conversion). I think that engine is the most reliable engine ever made-not necessarily the most fuel efficient-but still better on fuel then a 2 stroke (about the same as a 8V-92TA DDEC). Like the Series 60, Cummins NTC/N14 or ISX15, the 3406/C15 is a big block and big physically.

Still the medium blocks like the Cummins M11/ISM, Caterpillar C12, (Detroit didn't make a smaller version and I would not suggest the Mercedes-Benz 4000 [which is a remade over Series 55]) are a better size for bus conversion and have almost the same power. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2013, 07:47:27 AM »

Without a doubt the Cat 3406-425hp was a tough engine, drivers could lug one down to 900 rpm put the foot to it without changing gears, watch the black smoke roll and hang on it was off to races with 80,000 lbs on it's tail, 

The 3408 would haul a load also but pouring fuel in it was a big problem mine never got more than 4mpg loaded or empty when fuel was less than .50 cents a gal monster of a engine in a truck
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2013, 06:03:08 AM »

Pic of a 60 in an Eagle for inspiration.

Picture taken in an undisclosed location west of lake mead at one of the best bus garages in the desert.

I don't know who the owner of the bus was but it was pretty. (Van may know)

-Sean

www.herdofturtles.org
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2013, 06:38:32 AM »

Now if that were either the Cummins ISM or Caterpillar C12, the top of the engine would be about where the site glass is on the power steering reservoir. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2013, 06:56:41 AM »

Pic of a 60 in an Eagle for inspiration.

Picture taken in an undisclosed location west of lake mead at one of the best bus garages in the desert.

I don't know who the owner of the bus was but it was pretty. (Van may know)

-Sean

[url=http://www.herdofturtles.org]www.herdofturtles.org [/URL]
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 Sean, this is a model 01 Sundance conversion owned by a very nice couple from the Parump Nv area. Very nice set up!
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 07:33:19 AM by Van » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2013, 08:43:49 AM »

At the last BCM at the Caverns I don't if it is the same owner but the guy had just paid 160 grand for that bus my times have changed
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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2013, 09:02:43 AM »

When I first saw that picture of the Series 60 with a miter box, I scratched my head.  Then Van's post clarified that it was an 01 which have much more length to work with.

It was mentioned that this was a Sundance conversion.  Some of you knew Marv Roberts.  He passed away a few years ago, but his wife Hazel is doing well - great lady.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2013, 10:16:45 AM »

We come across many different engine set ups in Eagles, especially the model 01's. The Sundance conversion is quite the machine, owned by a fella named Vern, Clifford. His buddy Jerry (also from Parump) owns this 01 with a BC Cummins engine

Here's another 01 from S. Dakota with a 8-92 in it
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 10:18:33 AM by Van » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2013, 12:49:15 PM »

Roberts did do good work too bad he had 0 people skills,I never meet Hazel but did Marv on several occasions lol
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« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2013, 01:19:44 PM »

 Years ago when his shop was located in St. George, Ut. I walked in the back door to look at an Eagle that was in progress, I did not have my wallet outstretched in my hands so he threw me out in about 20 seconds..>>>Dan ( Later a friend of mine bought that unfinished Eagle from the bank for a song after he went BK)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 01:21:58 PM by Utahclaimjumper » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2013, 02:57:37 PM »

Marv did the outside of my 05 he did very nice work. He was not cheap good thing I could work harder then to pay the bills.

wayne
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« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2013, 03:08:47 PM »

We have known Marv and Hazel since the 70's when they were the ranch managers at a membership ranch in WY.  He used to drive an Eagle bus from Denver to the ranch and back each weekend.

They were absolute opposites.  Hazel was just a wonderful person to know.  As was noted, he did good work.  After he left St George, I went to his personal shop in Hill City, KS to get some bay doors for my bus.  He had a finished Eagle in one end of the shop and was working on another in the main shop area.

He had terrible people skills the whole time I knew him.  Talked to his brother several times over the past few years (he still owns an Eagle) and he is a very nice guy.

Sorry about the thread drift.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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