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Author Topic: Coach with Meritor/ZF Freedomline transmission without ABS???  (Read 2270 times)
rv_safetyman
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Jim Shepherd


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« on: June 12, 2013, 07:33:00 AM »

We have a member in the Eagles group who installed a Cummins with a Meritor/ZF Freedomline transmission (similar to an AutoShift without a clutch) in his Eagle.  The transmission ECM software is looking for ABS input (obviously the Eagle does not ABS).  Without that signal, the transmission will not function properly (think he said it would not go into the overdrive gears and has to be shifted "manually" with the control switch).

If we can find a coach that used that transmission and did not have ABS, perhaps we can find a way to download the software and install it on the Eagle transmission ECM. 

We were told that MCI used that combination on some buses.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
í85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
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luvrbus
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2013, 08:04:16 AM »

It has to be a prior 1998 model so that would be a 102D model I have only seen 1 and it was behind the Cat Engine
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Hard Headed Ken
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1988 Prevost Angola Conversion Repowered With 14L Series 60 & Eaton Ultrashift


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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2013, 08:26:00 AM »

Jim / Clifford / Bill
 If we can find the non-ABS program Iíll get a copy of the Meritor Tool Box software to Eric, he already has a Nexiq USB Link and a laptop running XP.  I have no experience with the Tool Box software other just opening it and looking at itís capabilities. From what I saw Iím reasonability sure it will reprogram the control module if we had the program we need. This is what Iím uncertain about. Is the Tool Box software capable of copying the program from one control module so it can be install another one? Even if itís not the Tool Box software should give some type of program ID for the non-ABS program, then I hope Meritor can provide that program.

Ken
 
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2013, 08:38:47 AM »

Ken, I thought you would "read between the lines". 

If anyone has a technical contact with MCI or Meritor, that is our best option.

While this is an isolated case, it will probably come up more in the future as these transmissions hit the wrecking yards.  On paper, it looks like a great transmission if we can get past the ABS issue.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
í85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2013, 10:16:20 AM »

Ok guys I spoke with a bolt turner that works on all Z/F transmissions so here is the place to call the guys name is Rick he is in sales now Harbor Diesel 1-562-591-5665 supposed the be the guru on Z/F with German training  

Ted said the Z/F is programed for all anti lock brake manufactures he doubts the ToolBox software is going to let you change that you will need the master and that is only available to factory authorized dealers and re builders and is only available through the factory server you may your work cut out for you Ken
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 06:38:35 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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Hard Headed Ken
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2013, 11:20:15 AM »

Maybe the best way to proceed is for Bill or Eric to call Rick and see if he knows which program is needed for a non ABS vehicle. If the program is available to him, Eric can send the TCM to him or someone he recommends that has the necessary equipment / software. That is, if Tool Box won't do the reprogramming. I'll be happy to help if there's something I can do (Like about 900 HP from that big Cummins Cheesy).

Ken
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luvrbus
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2013, 12:09:01 PM »

Just a thought I wonder if one could go through the ABS ECU for the brakes and tell the Z/F to disregard  the antilock brakes most have a disable function for the 4 channel brakes I don't know about a 6 channel set up 

I believe Bill has the ECU for the brakes off the donor truck
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 12:26:59 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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Hard Headed Ken
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2013, 02:00:36 PM »

If there is some reason the TCM canít be reprogrammed Jim and I talked about having an electronics tech build a circuit that would supply fake wheel speed signals that were based off the transmission speed sensor to the ABS module inputs, but we donít know what type of signal or frequency range the ABS module is expecting. It most likely would be a simple square wave, thatís what most of the automotive world uses but I donít know about the heavy truck world. Even though square wave generator circuits are not hard to build(for an electronics guy) I hope Bill doesnít have to resort to that. Some speed sensor outputs are square wave, for all I know you could piggyback off the existing speed sensor circuit into one of the ABS speed sensor inputs and it would shift correctly. That couldnít work, too simple.

Ken
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2013, 06:33:21 PM »

If this is the same Rick at Harbor Diesel that helped me with my ZF you are in good hands.

He helped me with a couple of work arounds at different times.

Good Luck

Melbo
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TomC
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2013, 11:52:39 PM »

Freightliner at one time offered the ZF 12spd Freedom transmission in the trucks. It was so expensive to both work on and replace, that it was pulled from the new truck specing program. Now only Eaton Ultrashift Plus in 10, 11, 13, 18spd, Mercedes-Benz DT12 in both direct and overdrive, and Allison automatics are the only automatics offered. The best thing you could do with that ZF is replace it with a 10spd Eaton Ultrashift Plus. Good luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2013, 05:55:12 AM »

I have a friend that has the Z/F 12 speed behind his C-15 in a Newell and loves it, never has he had any problems with it x truck driver himself 

I thought the reason some stopped offering the Z/F was because of the law suit between Eaton and Z/F they did go away for a short period of time till the suit was overturned by appeals after Eaton won the first round
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 06:13:25 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2013, 10:52:07 AM »

Couple of thoughts.  If Eric does not feel comfortable calling Rick I will do that.  Will probably not be able to do that till next week.

Clifford, did Newell ever use the transmission with a coach that did not have ABS.  If they did, I would bet your friend Carl Blade could get us the file we need.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
í85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2013, 11:00:43 AM »

No Jim they all had they anti lock brakes with the Z/F suspension with the 12 speed I already checked Karl out for Bill
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TomC
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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2013, 01:16:41 PM »

I never heard of the law suit between ZF and Eaton. The two transmissions have nothing in common-so I can't imagine why they would be fussing. Either transmission is of different design, gearing, electronics, etc. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2013, 01:33:04 PM »

Z/F not only sued Eaton but the truck manufactures as well I bet you a cool one if some body whats a Z/F in a FreightLiner they will get one offered or not now since the suit

good luck   
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chessie4905
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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2013, 02:06:15 PM »

Does that input come from a module that monitors wheel sensors, or direct from sensors. Is one sensor enough or do you need 4/6/8? Why not figure how to add the sensor/s. Can't be that difficult to do with a little thought and engineering at this point.
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rv_safetyman
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Jim Shepherd


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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2013, 05:21:48 PM »

Does that input come from a module that monitors wheel sensors, or direct from sensors. Is one sensor enough or do you need 4/6/8? Why not figure how to add the sensor/s. Can't be that difficult to do with a little thought and engineering at this point.

Ken noted in his post that we had considered trying to generate a signal that simulated one or more wheel sensors.  We also talked about trying to put some sort of sensor on the wheels, but that is a pretty big job.  Adding complexity is what we think is the path of the data.  We think the wheel sensor data might go to the Engine ECM (as part of the swerve avoidance/traction control) and then from there to the transmission ECM.

The best solution is to find ECM software from a transmission that was installed in a vehicle that did not have ABS (if there is such an animal).
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
í85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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