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Author Topic: Anyone have a lead on a GM 4106 engine? (Looks like we need a rebuild...)  (Read 2452 times)
technomadia
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« on: June 17, 2013, 09:32:21 AM »

An update -

The lower bank of cylinders is where the damage is - they are running 100 degrees cooler than the top bank, and oil flows freely into the blower drain and even into the exhaust. There is however no coolant getting into the oil, and the engine still has "good compression".

But quick / easy / cheap are all out of the question, sadly.  (But not unexpectedly...)

We are looking at an in frame rebuild, or they think it might just be easier to take the engine out to work on it.

First challenge - they are trying to figure out how to get the serial number of an engine on a 4106 so that they can start looking up parts. Where they expect the serial number to be on an 8V71 is seemingly very hard to access. Any ideas? Does anyone know the specific Detroit Diesel model number that would have been in a 1961 GM-4106?

And....

It might be quicker, easier, and cheaper to find a "new" engine to swap in.

Any leads on one?

We are in Billings, MT.

Feel free to call me at 408-667-9022 with advice.

The latest update on our towing is posted on the blog today:
  http://www.technomadia.com/2013/06/just-a-bump-in-the-road/

And link to the original thread when this all started:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=25834.0

Cheers,

   - Chris // www.technomadia.com
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 09:41:48 AM by technomadia » Logged

Cherie and Chris / www.technomadia.com
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Cary and Don
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2013, 09:55:23 AM »

Just a thought,  Have you considered looking for a silver 6V92 turbo if you are doing a swap?  Don't know what the logistics is,  but it is a really nice upgrade if you are paying for another engine anyway.

Don and Cary
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technomadia
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2013, 09:56:52 AM »

Just a thought,  Have you considered looking for a silver 6V92 turbo if you are doing a swap?  Don't know what the logistics is,  but it is a really nice upgrade if you are paying for another engine anyway.

If anyone has a lead on one... we're open to it.
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2013, 10:37:18 AM »

Are you a left hand rotation....??


FOR SALE
1984 6V92 TURBO ENGINE. THIS IS A RUNNING TAKE OUT THAT RAN VERY GOOD AND A REBUILT V730 ALLISON TRANS. THIS IS A LEFT HAND TURNING MOTOR, FOR GM COACH OR ANY COACH THAT NEEDS A LEFT HAND TURNING ENGINE.
 INSTALATION IS AVAILABLE IN SOUTHERN CA.
eMail: busbuilder@hbindustries.ws

Call Bob @ H.B.INDUSTRIES TOLL FREE AT 888-725-4661

NOTE: ALL DISCLAIMERS APPLY....I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THIS VENDOR OR CURRENT AVILABILITY ETC.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 10:43:17 AM by eagle19952 » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 11:03:13 AM »

 He DOES need a lefty, and the 92 would be a good swap, but requires more labor for the install, many custom parts need to be fabricated for the fan system. The best system I've seen is to mount the fan on its own separate bracket and drive it with a cogged belt.>>>Dan
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2013, 11:06:20 AM »

IS THE above motor pre ddec....that is what I would want....the left hand rotation is the limiting factor...yes...
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2013, 11:09:55 AM »

Chris,

This one may be a candidate for you,

http://www.busnut.com/classifieds/index.php?a=2&b=1148

Best of luck,

TM
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Steve & Kristen Full time nomads since '06 - PD4106-674  8V71/V730
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2013, 11:13:22 AM »

I have one of those fan set us on a 6-92 but the block is busted. I do have a LH 6V92TA DDEC III setting here with about 225 hrs. on it I don't think you would want to spend the money to convert it to an mui. Clifford may know where one may be.

Sorry I can't help.

Don
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2013, 11:19:38 AM »

Can't help on the replacement engine but something I've done to read an inaccessible serial number is to drop a digital camera in and take multiple pictures.
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2013, 12:04:05 PM »

Can't help on the replacement engine but something I've done to read an inaccessible serial number is to drop a digital camera in and take multiple pictures.

I have that model number and the serial numbers to a 1964.  I don't have them at my office though.   I can get them to you later tonight if my work day cooperates with me.   I just checked my Picasa web account.  I thought I had a picture, evidently not.  I know where I have them written down though.   IIRC theres a 4 and a 7 in it.  lol, sorry, not much help.   
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technomadia
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2013, 12:14:48 PM »

It looks like they were able to get this info off the engine:

ESN: 8VA-258845
MN: 7087-7340

They say that the model number indicates that this is not the original engine and that a turbo-charger equipped block had been installed, but the turbo-charger had been removed.

We checked the air box covers, and they are cast aluminum and not stamped - which we have been told indicates a newer 8V71.

Can anyone else give us any more information based upon these numbers?

Thanks!

   - Chris
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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2013, 12:34:43 PM »

I have one of those fan set us on a 6-92 but the block is busted. I do have a LH 6V92TA DDEC III setting here with about 225 hrs. on it I don't think you would want to spend the money to convert it to an mui. Clifford may know where one may be.

Sorry I can't help.

Don

Hey Don how about those engines over here by me?
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2013, 12:38:37 PM »

Serial number indicates mid - late 1973.  www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/moyer/guidelines/detroit_diesel_1972-1993.pdf

From the MTU website:


Model Number Decoder

Home Extras Model Number Decoder

Input your model number below to learn more about your 2-Cycle or other Detroit-built engine. Model numbers consist of up to nine digits/letters that signify engine series, number of cylinders, application, rotation and type, design variations and specific model number.

Examples:  1 03 3 7 0 00;      8 08 7 7 8 40;      8 16 3 7 0 00

Your engine details:
7
Engine Series:
V-71
 
Number of Cylinders:
 
8
Application:
FF-Auto
 
Rotation & Type:
 
3
Design Variations:
Turbo
40
Specific Model:
Pre-1991 Engine
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technomadia
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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2013, 12:58:52 PM »



Sweet! I'm a mid-1973 model too! 

 - Cherie
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2013, 01:05:31 PM »

Sweet! I'm a mid-1973 model too! 

 - Cherie

As long as your lower cylinders aren't about to fail...   Shocked

Brian
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« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2013, 01:59:27 PM »

A fellow bus-nut in central Florida has a running engine taken from a 4106 and he could ship it.  If you want more info, call him direct.  His name is Leonard and his phone number is four-oh-seven, four six six, four five eight seven.

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« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2013, 02:19:48 PM »

Hey guys,

Saw this GM fishbowl for sale locally on craigslist for $3000. says the motor has 20k since rebuild. It's close I could check it out for you. Spare tranny might come in handy.

Rick
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« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2013, 02:25:22 PM »

I think Leonard Jelkren would be ok to deal with. He is a regular at Arcadia too.
Dave M
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« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2013, 02:39:12 PM »

I agree that Leonard is a good guy, and very familiar with engines and heavy equipment. I certainly vouch for him.
Mike in GA
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technomadia
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« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2013, 02:39:49 PM »

A fellow bus-nut in central Florida has a running engine taken from a 4106 and he could ship it.  If you want more info, call him direct.  His name is Leonard and his phone number is four-oh-seven, four six six, four five eight seven.



Thank you!  We remember someone at Arcadia letting us know they had the rear of a 4106 on their property, but never got their contact info.  Smiley
 - Cherie
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« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 04:15:50 PM »

I know you guys: The math and time factor.  Shipping for close to 1800 miles--2 grand maybe?  Do you have the best base block already? Everything else OK? I'm sure you are on top of it. Deep breath and meet it head on!! Best wishes.   Bob
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technomadia
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« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2013, 04:58:08 PM »

Right on Bob - you know us well. At this point, if we are going through the expense and time - we want the most reliable set up we can get. For us, having an engine of unknown state shipped in is too much of a gamble.

We will be throwing estimated numbers together tomorrow for either having them rebuild our existing (confirmed ours is a 1973, so the newer block style) - or buying a warrantied rebuild to swap out.

This is our home, and we had anticipated this sort of thing when we bought Zephyr due to lack of history we had on her. It was all factored into our offering price. We count ourselves blessed that we have been able to earn interest on that cash we set aside for 2 years. Sure, it'd be nice to keep it earning interest..  but just a bump in the road we'll get past.

- Cherie

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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2013, 04:59:59 PM »

I'm sure you know this already but I'll say it anyway: the risk of doing a rebuild on your existing engine is project creep.  That's where you go in at $X,XXX and come out at 2 or 3 times $X,XXX.  Its not that the shop is crooked or gaming you - it just happens.  The advantage of any crate engine, new or used, is that the acquisition cost is a known amount - all you have left to deal with is removal and replacement.
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« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2013, 06:51:19 PM »

I'm sure you know this already but I'll say it anyway: the risk of doing a rebuild on your existing engine is project creep.  That's where you go in at $X,XXX and come out at 2 or 3 times $X,XXX.  Its not that the shop is crooked or gaming you - it just happens.  The advantage of any crate engine, new or used, is that the acquisition cost is a known amount - all you have left to deal with is removal and replacement.


100% plus 1 on this statement.  I owned a John Deere dealership for many years and this was inevitable on every large (non book rate) job.

I've been on the other side of the service bench too.  I was once quoted $10k for a job.  The bill came to $27k.  We "settled" at $17k. ouch.
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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2013, 06:56:33 PM »

I gave him some info on a good engine that has VS transmission it's in a AMC General what does it take to install from a AMC to 4106 anyone know for sure I don't
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technomadia
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2013, 07:05:07 PM »

I gave him some info on a good engine that has VS transmission it's in a AMC General what does it take to install from a AMC to 4106 anyone know for sure I don't

We did follow up with that lead, Clifford - thank you.  However, the situation & logistics were a bit too complicated for us (we'd have to pay to take it out of the bus, he quoted us an additional $3500 for that). Add in transportation costs, and we start getting close enough to the price of getting a remanufactured/rebuilt engine with warranty, without the additional risks of not knowing much about the AMC engine and what further reconditioning it might need. The owner couldn't tell us too much about its history, as he bought it off someone who is now deceased.

It's still on the potential lists.. but we are leaning towards other options.  If we happened to be near you, or any other trusted & known bus community members to help guide us to do the work  - we'd feel a lot more confident considering engines without documented rebuilds/remanufactures.

 - Cherie
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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2013, 07:37:21 PM »

I'm always of the mind to either rebuild your own engine (since then you'll know what's in it [if it can be]) or get a replacement rebuild from a reputable engine rebuilder. I would NOT install a take out or someones "low mile" engine without opening it up to inspect it. Installing another engine blind is just asking for more problems. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2013, 08:57:12 PM »

[Just the messenger here] Friend in OK is a Detroit guru so I asked him.  First, he has an Eagle to sell and he will deliver.  Smiley

Second he said http://www.americanfleetinc.com/ is by far going to be your best best if you are wanting a used engine.

Hope you find something.
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« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2013, 11:38:19 PM »

Say folk's you might try this web site.
http://www.jasperengines.com/index.php
Just info. only I have seen intercity buses with their engines in service.
jlv
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