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Author Topic: Ballpark costs for engine rebuilds and engine swaps...  (Read 2741 times)
technomadia
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« on: June 17, 2013, 06:43:37 PM »

I'm sure you know this already but I'll say it anyway: the risk of doing a rebuild on your existing engine is project creep.  That's where you go in at $X,XXX and come out at 2 or 3 times $X,XXX.  Its not that the shop is crooked or gaming you - it just happens.  The advantage of any crate engine, new or used, is that the acquisition cost is a known amount - all you have left to deal with is removal and replacement.


Bob left this comment in the other thread about our breakdown, and since we are still waiting on an estimate from Interstate, we are left wondering what the possible range of $X,XXX might be.

Based upon past experience - how much have people been charged to do an in-frame rebuild of an 8V71 on a 4106? How about an out-of-frame overhaul? How about to swap in a new engine for an old?

Feel free to share your experiences and anecdotes about the costs of the same service on other engines and buses too. I'm sure a lot of us are curious what the low and high end range of X might be.

Cheers,

   - Chris // www.technomadia.com
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Cherie and Chris / www.technomadia.com
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2013, 07:00:18 PM »

A inframe from a dealer will be 10 to 15 thousand a out of frame will be in the 20,000 range for a 8v71 and that is only because DD has lowered the price of liner kits now 

The difference between a in-frame and a out of frame is the in-frame is just a expensive band aid if the engine has had a in frame before a 73 model you could just about make book on it, buy a engine like Mark transit authorizes never did in frames at least Houston didn't I doubt any did in frames
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 07:29:43 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2013, 07:15:15 PM »

Here are some real world hard numbers on a 4106.  Two years ago I replaced my 8V71 with a unit from Nimco in NJ (they no longer sell take-outs, but at the time they had 50 plus on pallets ready to ship; 8V71 $2500, 6V92 $3500, 8V92 $4500).

5 hours to pull engine and tranny using a forklift (two guys and one woman, 12 beers, one pizza)
8 hours to install said engine and tranny (two guys and six beers, two pizzas)
4 hours to attach tranny to block (one guy, two beers, 8 heli-coil inserts)
40 hours to take the same engine from a different GM (transit) and get off the old cradle, swap engines on the 4106 cradle, swap pans, accessories, filters, air compressor, generator, fuel lines, manifolds, blower air inlet, controls, hoses, etc etc etc.  In truth, it took me 100 plus hours because I chased every single threaded hole to clean them, painted components, replaced everything rubber, added Jakes.  If I was charging a customer, this would have been 40 hours and not as "clean" a swap over.  The details take time.

I hope this helps a little.  I did this work in a nice garage with an overhead crane to pickup and move engines, trannys, flywheels, etc. Huge time (and back) saver.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 07:07:50 AM by OneLapper » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2013, 07:34:53 PM »

I have done in frames and worked along side others doing same, and 26-28 hours is more than fair (Two long shifts). ( Of course they may say go find him...)
IRRC an out of frame rebuild always flat rated at 48 hours plus removal and install. (R+R) using exchange heads and fresh injectors.
These were in 10-12 yard dump trucks and Terex loaders and scrapers Koerhring back-hoes etc..
I would hope that a coach would be within 10% of that.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 07:37:44 PM by eagle19952 » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2013, 04:50:34 AM »

In 2010 myself and a $40. per hour cash truck mechanic removed eng. and trans out of my 102c3   6v92ta  in 3.5 hrs . Then removed the auto trans. put the eng. on a skid strapped it down and shipped it out. $ 450 each way 1200 miles return trip. $9500. full rebuild ( 2 weeks return ) Another 4 hrs to install , fire up. Now I did have a problem with some black smoke at full power and did the 600 mile trip for the rebuilder guys to install a new turbo and some adjustments no charge and it was a nice camping trip. I just got back from a trip to there shop so they could bump the h. p. to 350 hp wow! There shop is in Newville Pennsylvania .If you want the # send me a email  . I know they have some Eng.'s on site 


dave   
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2013, 06:05:04 AM »

I called my guys in Pennsylvania they have cores  8v 71's in stock to be rebuilt or you can have your's rebuilt the cost is $9850. plus core or the same price exchange for a 6v 92ta with warranty on both . Now much to have it shipped ?   


dave
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
technomadia
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2013, 07:38:17 AM »

I called my guys in Pennsylvania they have cores  8v 71's in stock to be rebuilt or you can have your's rebuilt the cost is $9850. plus core or the same price exchange for a 6v 92ta with warranty on both . Now much to have it shipped ?   


dave

Thanks.. appreciate you following up on the option.  Unfortunately, we are broken down in Billings, MT - and are in transit. While it wouldn't be the end of the world if we missed our next engagement (or made other arrangements to get there)... 

Anyway, we're trying to balance cost vs time to getting back out on the road with the most reliable setup we can manage. It seems other options, with similar costs, would get us back and running in a quicker time frame.   

The purpose of this thread is to have a scale in mind when the shop presents us their estimates today..

Thanks all,
 - Cherie
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bobofthenorth
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2013, 08:35:27 AM »

Bob left this comment in the other thread about our breakdown, and since we are still waiting on an estimate from Interstate, we are left wondering what the possible range of $X,XXX might be.

Different bus and different engine but for us $X,XXX was $9,000 and out the door kicked hell out of $20,000.  That was an 8-92 in frame in an '81 Prevost at Camp Luke (US Coach).  We used all genuine Detroit parts for whatever that might be worth and we had to buy one new head which was a really painful amount.  Other than that it was a pretty standard rebuild - we went into it hoping for the best and fixed whatever we found as we went along.  Took about a week start to finish.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 08:38:37 AM by bobofthenorth » Logged

R.J.(Bob) Evans
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2013, 08:56:12 AM »

Buying a engine when they get through swapping all the accessory's it will add another 3000 or 4000 dollars to the bill always keep that in mind Cherie plus there will another 1000 bucks for fluids and filters and other items like the 9850 price that engine will not come with a bell housing or the fan drive all of that will need to come from your engine no matter where you or who you buy from the 14,000 engine will be closer to 20,000 grand when finished

I am trying to help you get a real cost or it will get out of hand you need to know that part up front people don't tell you the whole story, the DD dealer may be the cheapest when the final tally is done wish you guys the best

good luck
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 08:59:37 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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technomadia
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 09:04:59 AM »

I am trying to help you get a real cost or it will get out of hand you need to know that part up front people don't tell you the whole story, the DD dealer may be the cheapest when the final tally is done wish you guys the best


And we so very much appreciate that Smiley  You know we like dealing with reality.   Either way - rebuild or swap in a remanufactured - is going to have similar price ticket when all is said and done (within a couple grand at least).  For us, it's not a matter of the cheapest option, but the right option.

And, we also want to be armed for when we get the estimates if they're inline with reality - or inflated.

 - Cherie
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 10:30:00 AM »

Hi   Cherie why not call Irvin or Tim at leids diesel they did my eng. and he will help you with any question's you have . They rebuild 2 stroks every day and are the most honest I have ever dealt with. No web site you will have to call them. I told Irvin about you today.         717 776 7725              or call me 705 789 8189   dave         
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1990 mci 102c  6v92 ta ht740  kit,living room slide . home base huntsville ontario canada
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2013, 11:14:36 AM »

 The guys at Leid do a great job; they turboed our 4104 with great results. I'll have them do any/ future work, as needed. Previous owner of our 4905 coach lost an engine out on the road and had a reman engine AND V730 installed; receipts indicate $14,000 by Deans coach in N.C. about 10 years ago.However I would have concerns about having one done and having it shipped cross country. What if it gets damaged in shipping, what if the reman has an issue(any one can) and getting it resolved with installer charging you to deal with it? How much down time can you tolerate? In your situation, I would probably get a reman engine from a rebuilding company that you can get warranty issues resolved anywhere in the country. You seem to travel around a great deal, although I don't know how distant you get from your present area. Are you sure yet what caused your problem, so it won't happen again? BTW, what condition is your radiator in? You'll want it tip top with a new engine. Also you might consider Nalcool or equivalent added to your cooling system. It aids in heat transfer. Make sure you have a low coolant system working. I don't know if yours have one or not. 4905's do and it is not to difficult to add one.
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 12:30:28 PM »

Your going to like this one::: Your 900 miles from the Oregon Coast. Low boy. To a better known location? More time to make decision on what path to take and for repairs to be made. 900 mile X $5a mile.  I paid $3 ---2 years ago.  I know! shoot me...Just saw you post on BNO so disreguard.   Bob
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 01:16:25 PM by robertglines1 » Logged

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technomadia
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2013, 12:38:08 AM »

IRRC an out of frame rebuild always flat rated at 48 hours plus removal and install. (R+R) using exchange heads and fresh injectors.

Looking at the quote we received today, I think it works out to 22 hours labor for engine removal and installation, and 80 hours labor for the engine rebuild - including steam cleaning, painting, dyno testing, tuning, rebuilding the blower, replacing the water pump, and replacing all the engine coolant hoses and clamps.  The end result rebuilt engine will come with a 1 year warranty. I think the quoted price also includes replacing all the fluids and filters too.

The total estimate including parts worked out to be roughly what we had been told to expect, so the sticker shock hasn't hit us too hard. No taxes here in MT either, a nice bonus. :-)

  - Chris

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Cherie and Chris / www.technomadia.com
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2013, 08:51:53 PM »

My wife and I use our 4106 similarly to you guys, we live in it while working nomadicaly.  Mostly in the Pacific Northwest towing our Mini Clubman and one trip a year to Minnesota.

Recently did major work on our 8v71.  My decision has been to optimize the performance and cooling of the 8v71 Natural  for now and then observe the performance and decide if I'm comfortable upgrading to turbo in future or if its needed. 

Some numbers that will be helpful to you.
$1700 for recore of original radiator to 7 row
$1000 for replacing nearly all hoses and fittings in the engine compartment (parts only)

I wouldn't dream of spending the dough on a rebuild or repower without having the radiator at least thoroughly boiled out and tested by a competent shop or recored and upgraded.  Same goes for all new hoses and clamps, these strand these engines more often than actual internal failure, or worse leads to failure due to fluid loss.

I have repowered many vehicles (no coaches), there is always a lot of unexpected expenses that come up if you aren't doing the work yourself.  Most repower advice comes from DIY guys like myself who seem to forget all the little brackets and fabrication items that they whipped and welded up during the process that cost normal people big $$$ because its all custom work.   I have never engine swapped anything that didn't take at least twice as much TIME as I estimated due to the little tasks that are unexpected.

My advice is a simple rebuild right now and then consider well planned upgrades in the future if you feel the need.  I would only consider a 6v92 repower if the bus wasn't already being used and needed and down TIME wasn't a big issue.  6v92 is mostly such a good swap because of the turbo anyways.  I would rather turbo an engine I knew was 100% solid than repower with a used 6v92 and end up rebuilding later.
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technomadia
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2013, 08:05:31 AM »


My advice is a simple rebuild right now and then consider well planned upgrades in the future if you feel the need.  I would only consider a 6v92 repower if the bus wasn't already being used and needed and down TIME wasn't a big issue.  6v92 is mostly such a good swap because of the turbo anyways.  I would rather turbo an engine I knew was 100% solid than repower with a used 6v92 and end up rebuilding later.

Thank you for the real life numbers and experience, especially on the radiator core - as that is planned in all scenarios.

Unfortunately - 'simple rebuild' is looking to cost in the same ballpark as the swap potential of a remanufactured or reliabilt 6v92 option we are also pursuing. If we go with a 8v71 rebuild (which is very much still on the table), it would be 'the final solution' sort of proposition, not a temporary solution with potential to swap later.

So thus, we are trying to carefully consider the options and do things as best we can now. Time, we are flexible on... now that our July plans are shot anyway. Smiley

 - Cherie
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 08:10:23 AM by technomadia » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2013, 08:40:24 AM »

Overhaul your own engine. Then you can just replace what really needs replacing rather then just blindly replacing everything with new. Sometimes you can get by with replacing the one bad cylinder and then re ringing the other pistons and installing new bearing shells. Will save hundreds-maybe thousands. Good luck, TomC
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2013, 08:46:04 AM »

And yet I would bite the bullet and do new everything.  These side of the road things tend to be a lot more money than doing it on home turf.  If its done new, you wont ever have to worry about that engine again.

Chances are like everyone else, you probably have more money into the bus than its worth now.  No need worrying about getting your money out of it if you sell it cause you wont. Smiley  I am included in that "everyone else".  At least you'd know you could get good money for the engine.

Done rambling.........
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2013, 09:19:49 AM »

We bought the bus with an unknown mechanical history for pretty darn cheap, and knew from the beginning a major engine something was a likely scenario. When we got the bus so affordably, we put the money aside then, and are using this opportunity to set off with a reliable setup that will give us confidence in the wheels beneath our feet.

Whether or not a few patches could get us back on the road - the reality check of this break down has us wanting the peace of mind of knowing we are setting off with as reliable an engine bay as we can muster. Despite lots of preventative maintenance for the past 2 years, we've always had a lurking 'what if' as we had no idea of the condition of things inside the engine.

This is also our full time home on wheels... we're always on 'home turf'.  We don't have our own garage or tools or expertise to do an overhaul ourselves.

Keeping 'value' in the bus? Nah, not even a consideration. This is our home - feeling comfortable, confident and proud of our home are the most important outcomes. We love our bus, and the home we've built with her.

And besides, even with this expense - we're still far ahead than had we just bought a generic high end Class-A (financially and happiness factor).

 - Cherie
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2013, 09:40:55 AM »

Agreed 100%  You've hit a "what if" and hopefully you'll get this behind you and have piece of mind knowing its been resolved.  Wish you weren't on the "other side" of Montana.  I'd be more than happy to sit with a cup of coffee in hand and point at things to help you along.  Wink
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2013, 10:07:10 AM »

But..in reality the thought of a repower ah la a 6v92T is really and truly not going to be one spec more confidence inducing than an absolutely equally nicely and confidently OBSERVED overhaul of your current motor...(it MAY be an ego inducing power monster in them thar hills)....BUT it will certainly REQUIRE a more constant vigil on the ever omnipotent TEMP gauge....
You will have the warm and fuzzy knowledge of knowing WHAT caused your failure....IF (and the fact) it WAS or WAS NOT your current cooling configuration...
You will never know if it was a burnt injector tip...I could not sleep well not knowing that.....
Your lifestyle currently appears to be one indicative of slow and steady wins the race....why change now ?
My 40' eagle hauling a 16 foot trailer got me up Tioga Pass at 22-24 mph (with an occasional 19 mph segment.....imagine all I would have missed at 31-34 mph.
PS I have a 8v71N.....
PSS it got me down w/o Jakes  Wink
PSS and then there would be no Rosy R. pics... Cry
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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2013, 10:22:33 AM »

We're currently exploring 2 primary options..

- Rebuild/overhaul the 8v71 here in Billings at the DD shop we're at, and roll away with a fully DYNO'd engine, all new hoses/clamps,  new water pump, thermostats, etc and flushed/inspected/recored cooling system.

or

- Get hauled 1200 miles down to Don's in CA and have him work magic on our engine..  he's exploring either overhaul/rebuild the 8v71 (if it's not damaged beyond being worth rebuilding) into a turbo, or repower with a 6v92TA... and all the proper cooling setup needed, of course.

Our interest is in the turbo option for power at altitude, giving us confidence to explore and crossing mountains. Not to go vroom everywhere else.

There are logistical factors with both options that will play deciding roles. We're working through those now.

 - Cherie
PS. Don't worry about lack of Rosy R pics..  never hard to get this girl to pose for a camera Smiley

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