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Author Topic: Technomadia Update: Catastrophic air filter Failure - Cause or Effect?  (Read 6059 times)
technomadia
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« on: June 21, 2013, 06:09:12 PM »

Today was a long day in the shop dropping the motor out of Zephyr - a fascinating learning experience.

Along the way, we discovered a potential cause of our woes - the engine had managed to inhale part of the air filter!?!?!

Was this the initial failure, or the result of the engine starting to run away from some other cause, or something else entirely?

Is the filter getting sucked partially into the engine air intake a result of the overall failure, or the cause of it?

The filter is a Baldwin PA2721, installed last August.  We've gone just 4,062 miles since that filter change - and none of them particularly dusty.

The filter minder has been reading in the green, but ever since this filter was installed it was already closer to the red than the older Wix 46891 filter we had replaced. I was just assuming that the Baldwin filter naturally had worse airflow, and had planned to skip that brand next time. But I hadn't worried about it - the Filter Minder was had barely gotten any worse than it was when we first installed the filter last August.

That prior Wix filter we had logged 10k miles on over the course of one year.

The filter that was on the bus when we bought it was a Farr EcoLite C-62891-1 U - we have no idea how long that filter had been in use. We changed it soon after buying the bus.

Theoretically, all three of these should be interchangeable.

Anyway - there is a picture of the filter attached.

Any ideas??  Has anyone seen anything like this before?

We'll get a deeper look into the engine over the next few days, tracking down the collateral damage.

For all of you who have shared your wisdom and experience here and over the phone, thank you. 

Cheers,

   - Chris
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John316
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MCI 1995 DL3, DD S60, Allison B500.




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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2013, 06:18:03 PM »

Chris,

That is really something. How big is your air filter? Ours is like 18" in diameter and really big. If that got inhaled that would do some serious damage.

I am watching your saga with interest. So far, I have been very impressed with how coolly you have taken things in stride. I remember warning you all at the beginning about these kind of expenses. Sure enough, blew the engine. However, the brilliant part is that you made sure you had plenty to cover repairs. Totally awesome. You all are poster kids for bus ownership. Kudos.

Can you catch us up on what your latest plans are? Obviously the shop is dropping the engine. Diagnostics, or are they rebuilding? I can't go to bed until I know Grin

Cheers,

John
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MCI 1995 DL3. DD S60 with a Allison B500.
luvrbus
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2013, 06:20:49 PM »

Yep I changed Georges filter on his 01 Eagle it had suck into the air horn always buy the ECO,Wix,Donaldson or Parker in that type filter best you can buy,on your bus I would move the filter to a location on the passengers side plenty of room there yours in not in a good place fwiw  

I never trust a filter minder and have preached that for years here but people swear by the junk  

good luck  
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technomadia
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2013, 06:26:33 PM »


That is really something. How big is your air filter? Ours is like 18" in diameter and really big. If that got inhaled that would do some serious damage.

Here are the dimensions for the product: O.D.: 9 25/32 (248.4) Inlet: 6 Outlet: 6 Length: 25 7/8 (657.2)

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Can you catch us up on what your latest plans are? Obviously the shop is dropping the engine. Diagnostics, or are they rebuilding? I can't go to bed until I know Grin


They're going to have a good look over first and if a rebuild still seems like a reasonable thing, then rebuild.  We'll adjust the plan as needed.  We are prepared for the worst case scenario.

Thank you for the kudos Smiley We're trying our best to balance all the wisdom, opinions and our own goals.

 - Cherie

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roadrunnertex
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2013, 06:29:57 PM »

Wow!
What a mess no wonder it was emitting lots of black smoke and no power.
My Buffalo came with a Farr single stage Pamic air filter as a option from GMC Truck and Coach and it's listed in the Final Vehicle record for the bus.
My bus filter is in the shape of a large box so far no problem in 15 years that I have owned the bus.
I still like the old oil bath air cleaners that were standard on the GMC Coaches.
Let us know what other damage this filter failure has caused.
jlv


 
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technomadia
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 06:30:25 PM »

always buy the ECO,Wix,Donaldson or Parker in that type filter best you can buy,on your bus I would move the filter to a location on the passengers side plenty of room there yours in not in a good place fwiw

Thanks.. and noted. Choo Choo sourced and installed the Baldwin. We had previously procured the Wix on our own, and will insist on these recommended brands in the future.

 - Cherie
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technomadia
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2013, 06:38:25 PM »

on your bus I would move the filter to a location on the passengers side plenty of room there yours in not in a good place fwiw

Where are you thinking?  Our canister filter currently sits directly above the engine on the passenger side, extending out to the air inlet box on the passenger side.

I am hoping to take this opportunity to find a better style of filter / mounting location.  The way the original converter had installed it, it was incredibly difficult to change. We'd love to work out something better and easier.

I never trust a filter minder and have preached that for years here but people swear by the junk    

Do you have a better recommendation?  What is the best way to monitor air filter health?

Cheers,

   - Chris
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2013, 06:51:40 PM »

something to be said for oil bath air filters
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2013, 07:05:57 PM »

Make brackets and install it close to door by the transmission,those filters can be used with out the intake system that the old GM oil bath had like your buy a 1100 cfm flow and the old 8v71 will love you for it 950 cfm is just not enough air for those engines  to monitor just watch the exhaust for black smoke or change  it once a year
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2013, 07:22:34 PM »

Depending on how far they are in pulling the motor have you guys considered starting the motor now to see if that's why it's running so rich? It's obvious it would not have been getting sufficient air for clean combustion through all that mess. You probably can't hurt it more than it already is. Those tips on the injectors sound more and more plausible when you consider all that cardboard sucked into the cylinders. It may be seriously damaged but I have seen these motors appear to be on their last legs and a good mechanic runs the rack or changes a couple injectors and vrroooom.

Just a thought...

Rick
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NonHippieBus
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2013, 08:35:48 PM »

Cause, not effect.

Possibly THE problem
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luvrbus
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2013, 08:39:01 PM »

That would explain the no power and black smoke 
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2013, 08:45:34 PM »

My new motor would take a serious look at this....more than you thought you would ever need to know.....
paying first attention to Clifford's CFM requirement...(1200 Min flo IIRC) then studying starting on page 11....
PAGE 158 contains the CFM references that Donaldson uses.
http://india.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/061238.pdf

then for further enlightenment :PARKER/RACOR/FARR are all the same company now (it appears)..all are excellent choices...imo..
http://www.parker.com/literature/Racor%20Europe/fdrb263uk.pdf

http://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/7654_Rev_A_(BUL_ECO_II).pdf

PS if enough of that filter has migrated to the screen that lays betwixt your blower rotors and the atmosphere your engine had no air.

believe me I have found the strangest things obstructing that screen, having been sucked into the intake by sleepy < kind words> mechanics...the funniest...a vinyl pocket protector complete with ink pens....steel rule etc. That motor did not run well either.you may find paper element pieces obstructing yours.

PS Donaldson provides brackets and air intake piping and inlet adapters.....


« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 08:49:39 PM by eagle19952 » Logged

Donald PH
1978 Model 05 Eagle w/Torsilastic Suspension,8V71 NA, DDAllison on 24.5's 12kw Kubota.
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technomadia
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2013, 09:02:41 PM »

Make brackets and install it close to door by the transmission,those filters can be used with out the intake system that the old GM oil bath had like your buy a 1100 cfm flow and the old 8v71 will love you for it 950 cfm is just not enough air for those engines  to monitor just watch the exhaust for black smoke or change  it once a year

I just checked and the EcoLite and Wix filter are both specced at 1000cfm, and though I can't find a cfm spec on the Baldwin it is listed as a drop in identical replacement for both of the other two model numbers.

But you can be sure we will make sure the next filter setup is 1100cfm, or more.

Thanks!

   - Chris
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eagle19952
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2013, 09:22:19 PM »

Per Baldwin s website your current filter Baldwin PA2721  is spec'd for
Vehicle :   Trucks & Buses
Manufacturer :   SPARTAN
Make :   Motorhome Chassis
Model :   NVS GT; NVS ME
Engine :   NVS GT, NVS ME w/Cummins ISC Eng.

Vehicle :   Trucks & Buses
Manufacturer :   ELDORADO
Make :   Buses
Model :   30LF Low Flow Transit
Engine :   30LF Low Flow Transit w/LNG Eng. (1999-2001)

FREIGHTLINER Chassis XC-Series

Vehicle :   Trucks & Buses
Manufacturer :   FREIGHTLINER
Make :   Chassis
Model :   XC-Series
Engine :   XC-Series w/Cummins ISL Eng.

Wikipedia:
The Cummins ISL is a straight-six diesel engine designed and produced by Cummins. It displaces 8.9 litres (543.1 cu in), and began production in 1998.



This may help sort the CFM of the Baldwin PA2721
  
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 09:39:23 PM by eagle19952 » Logged

Donald PH
1978 Model 05 Eagle w/Torsilastic Suspension,8V71 NA, DDAllison on 24.5's 12kw Kubota.
Wants Paint Smiley
Previously owned by Wee Willie Ent.
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