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Author Topic: Technomadia Update: Catastrophic air filter Failure - Cause or Effect?  (Read 5644 times)
eagle19952
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« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2013, 04:59:00 PM »

The filter was too small, the P.O. should of bought a filter twice that size.  I may have more comments, but I have other posts to regard.
--Geoff

Not everyone has your experience. I believe they used the best advice they had at the time.......... just saying.
Additionally I don't think I ever heard anyone say that there was such a thing as to large of an air filler.... just saying.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2013, 05:55:49 PM »

6 inch intake is good but 7 inch is better like they say bigger is better
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« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2013, 06:07:45 PM »

As near as I can get from online, that filter should be rated for 1000 cfm, which is a bit short of what some recommend but is within a reasonable range.  There are different possibilities for the failure, but I do not think it is merely an issue of capacity.  It could be factory defect, massive over revving of engine, getting too wet, over clogging, etc.  I am sure that many here have filters with equal capacity forever and have not had problems.

Of course, extra capacity is better.  My current canister has 6 inch ports, but I would try to find a filter element with a higher rating before I change out the whole thing.
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Barn Owl
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« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2013, 06:11:29 PM »

Quote
No turbo but a blower that will do some sandblasting on it's own lol

Yes, I agree. Just as a smoker knows what harm they are doing.....I am playing the odds. The motor is already worn out, it only needs to last a few more years, not decades. And don't forget as soon as the filter gets clogged up, it won't pass any dirt at all, just like the paper ones. I already have a spare 8v71 in the cradle with a documented rebuild and another that runs but I don't know if it is a healthy one or not. I don't want to re-power with anything non-turbo, but I do have plan B and C. My bus is not my hobby, it is only a tool to have some fun with. When all of my children are gone, scattered all over, then I will shake things up a bit.
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« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2013, 06:29:11 PM »

Working on the exhaust is good GM and MCI are terrible about trying to get the correct flow from their exhaust system they get nowhere close to the 2180 cfm required for a 8V71 

I find the bus manufactures size the air cleaners then install 90 bends makes no sense, same with the exhaust systems Eagles with the 8v71 got it right on the exhaust system dual 3 inch pipes and they sound sweet and don't run hot   
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technomadia
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« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2013, 09:07:57 PM »

The filter was too small, the P.O. should of bought a filter twice that size. 

The Donaldson Filters guide lists 874cfm as the required airflow for a Detroit Diesel 8V71N at 2100rpm. Don Fairchild just chimed in with 954cfm as the requirement if the governor is set for 2300rpm.  (Ours is 2100rpm...)

Either way - the 1000cfm filter that was in the bus when we bought it was certainly not too small, though going larger to 1200cfm will be the plan going forward.

As for twice the size - 2000cfm??  Really?

Does anyone here have a filter that large on an 8V71N?

Cheers,

   - Chris
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luvrbus
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« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2013, 09:20:04 PM »

954 cfm is for a 314 hp setting with no bends set at 2300 rpm no load or 2100 rpm load fwiw 2100 rpm no load will give you around 1800 +  at load, the 2300 to 2500 rpm no load is the standard setting for a 8v71
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 10:00:37 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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Gary '79 5C
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« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2013, 07:05:48 AM »

OK you guys got me to thinking of my set up and what can fail.

I do have(did) a Baldwin PA2503. I have a 6" inlet 90 directly into the filter, the a 5" outlet with a 45 into the turbo of my 6V92TA. Changed 5 yrs ago, 10K miles since. Gosh I need to retire & go !

Outside of ditching the Baldwin, am I passinng enough air to keep my engine going for a long while ?? I know pics would help, I forgot.....

Thanks,

BTW, my good friend Lukie sold me the Baldwin... Hope is well, just have not stopped by recently.
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« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2013, 07:14:36 AM »

Just got 2 Baldwin PA1676-FN air filters to replace my WIX - 42125 in my rebuild.  The pleats are noticeably spaced wider on the Baldwin than the WIX and you can see more "light" through the Baldwin.

The expanded metal looks thinner and filter element is not glued to the metal as with the  WIX.  Guess there was a reason for $45 vs $70

I suppose I'll run 'em about 10k or 6 months and toss, then go back to NAPA Gold, WIX or Donaldson.
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« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2013, 07:47:15 AM »

Now there is some great info for you guys with different materials and manufacturing process used in air filters by different manufactures
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« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2013, 07:57:14 AM »

I couldn't remember what air filter I had so I looked it up.  I have a Donaldson Eco SM, which is 7" in and out, 1550 cfm and there is a single 90 degree reducer elbow to the 5" turbo inlet.  It's bloody big, though!  I had all sorts of visions of neato mounting tricks I would use, I removed the stock 4 filter oil bath setup so I had lots of room, and it all went out the window when I got it home from the store and it could barely fit through the side door of the engine bay. 

www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/000622.pdf‎  One thing I noticed, though, looking at the picture of the failed air filter.  My filter looks very similar, big can with a port on the side and a port on the top.  The top port is the outlet to the turbo, drawing air from the inside of the round filter, and the inlet to the filter is on the side drawing air from around the circumference of the filter element.  The picture seemed to have that reversed, with air being pulled out of the side port.  If the direction of suction is reversed from what was intended could that have contributed to a failure?

Brian
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« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2013, 08:13:28 AM »

A little info for the 1 piece filter all manufactures build those under a license agreement from Parker it's their  design and patent no matter who the name is on the filter enough failures they will pull the license
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eagle19952
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« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2013, 08:59:10 AM »


www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/000622.pdf‎  

If the direction of suction is reversed from what was intended could that have contributed to a failure?

ABSOLUTELY..... I was going to mention this to Cherie the Riveter and Captain Zeph later as they seem overwhelmed at the moment...but I have not researched the flow moments of the Baldwin previously installed yet....Donaldson does warn...and most filters load at 90* to plane...not unload. HAVING SAID THAT SOME are spcd for inside out flo.

FWIW...A FILTER MINDER must be mounted/located atleast one pipe diameter from a bend or transition in order to be accurate.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 12:00:25 PM by eagle19952 » Logged
luvrbus
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« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2013, 09:08:33 AM »

Not taking anything away or bad mouthing C&C but I have saw the install the PO did it's not something I would send out the first time they changed it in Utah at Michel's place it took 2 days with 4 people and all the stuff they could get from HD maybe not quite that bad but it is bad

 I have used that type filter for over 20 years not that brand, if not marked for inlet only they can be used both ways the tapered cones types are 1 way but they will be marked 

The best one is the type with the clip on reusable saddle inlet that sets on the canister  makes changing a 2 minute job and the saddle is a long oblong that has no corners
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 09:42:44 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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eagle19952
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« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2013, 11:57:07 AM »

There is a lot more to skinning a cat than meets the eye....and it's even harder when you have to engineer stuff out in the middle of know where....
most shops...like iState would have one or two service writers directing a master mechanic who will oversee the work out on the floor...
and the service manager would have a few qualified people certifying things like radiator cooling capacity and piping restrictions and bends...
or combustion air flow requirements...in and out...
or fuel limits...with experts in those disciplines...not by the it worked on his and remember that one we built two years ago that hasn't failed yet method.....

hardly ever in a warranty implied obligation is the guy doing the work the one who decides everything.(possibly anything)
it takes many years of experience to do ALL of that....and can frustrate the heck out of the G's and C's and T's and others who have earned their reps and careers on those backgrounds.
and then you have guys like me who employed people personalities to interact with the public...cuz I am just not good at that.
the stuff in the background and the wrenching that's were I can help.
I can be a real pain or asset when it comes to assuring that all the pieces work together.
just like Cherie and company....it would be very hard to BS them in there expertise and impossible to put one past them or convince them that you were right when they know better.
and as they would tell a client ...I can't see everything from a 100 miles away.

one call to Donaldson and in twenty minutes they will be able to figure out a lot.

after manually searching Baldwin's online application guide using bus/truck on hwy  8v71 criteria...the only elements that I could find that they endorse was PA1846 AND PA1846XP...for anything powered by a 8v71.


I am yet uncertain if an eco style by Baldwin is an approved replacement.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 12:52:49 PM by eagle19952 » Logged
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