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Author Topic: A 'Boring' Question re: 8V71  (Read 3006 times)
technomadia
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« on: June 29, 2013, 06:00:23 PM »

So first.. a quick update.

The shop got our 8V71 disassembled this past week - and the most substantial damage is two of the cylinder sleeves on the lower bank with two them being brittle enough to fall apart when coming out (pic below), and the rest of the sleeves showing signs of minor scoring from heat/debris.  The heads, block, cam shaft and crank shaft are thus far looking to be good.

One possible concern they noted as they were closing up shop on Friday afternoon, is that the holes in the block had previously been bored to 020. They are concerned that the two holes surrounding the more substantially damaged sleeves may possibly have some warping from the heat - as the sleeves needed to be pryed out. Several 2-stroke techs visually checked it out and said it looks good and they aren't concerned - but measurements will be taken on Monday morning to be sure before we move forward.

Obviously, the holes can be safely bored to 030, and use the oversized sleeves to match. And that's probably what most of you living outside an official DD shop would do?

However, the shop is saying that officially DD doesn't consider that within their specifications - and thus it could limit the official Detroit Diesel warranty they send us off with.

To best be armed with information Monday morning... is 030 considered outside official spec, and thus place limitations on the DD parts & labor warranty for the rebuild? Are there any concerns with that approach if it comes to it? 

We've had excellent direct communication with the crew here, spent several hours shadowing them each step of the way, gotten to know several of our techs personally while living here.. and don't suspect they're using scare tactics to upsell us or anything, but, as luvrbus says.. we're also keeping a close eye on our purse.

Any thoughts (besides the obvious 'don't go to an official DD shop' remarks)?

 - Cherie

PS. The primary culprit of the cause of all of this is still the failed air filter we posted about previously.

 
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Cherie and Chris / www.technomadia.com
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Lin
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2013, 06:15:20 PM »

Can't answer your question, but wanted to let you know that after seeing the picture of your air filter I immediately changed mine.  It was still within mileage specs but getting kind of old. 

Since there is a steel mesh on the outside of my filter (is yours the same?), which I would think is there to make sure the pleats do not unfurl as happened to you.  I wonder if the filter was defective to begin with or something in the canister damaged the mesh.
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2013, 06:43:25 PM »

When they put the dial bore micrometer in the bore they will see right away.   Any damage in the bore will show up and push those holes to the next size..  If they mike out within spec, keep it at .020"
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technomadia
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2013, 08:34:12 PM »

Can't answer your question, but wanted to let you know that after seeing the picture of your air filter I immediately changed mine.  It was still within mileage specs but getting kind of old. 

Since there is a steel mesh on the outside of my filter (is yours the same?), which I would think is there to make sure the pleats do not unfurl as happened to you.  I wonder if the filter was defective to begin with or something in the canister damaged the mesh.

Hi Lin.. glad our experience is bringing awareness to stuff.

Ours had steel on the intake side, but not the outflow side. On the visible side of the pleats, all that was there are some rubber-ish looking bands to hold them together. We've not dissected the canister yet, as the shop is helping us document a claim with Baldwin in case it was a defect - and their instructions specifically say to leave it untampered.

 - Cherie
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 03:47:58 AM »

You can visually inspect a cylinder bore to fail it if there is easily visible damage, but you indeed need the bore micrometers to pass it.  You need to measure it for size first, and for roundness and taper.  On the filter, the Donaldson site says that size and spec filter is dual-direction, but maybe the Baldwin version of it is not.  That would be a question I would definitely ask just to make sure.

Brian
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 04:29:09 AM »

  Place limitations on warranty and rebuild? Maybe another block should be considered as at .030 you are done if it has issues down the road needing a bore increase, unless .040 is available.I guess it would depend on what another block would cost. Anyway, it still depends on whether it'll clean up and whether any cracks show up.
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2013, 07:09:13 AM »

Brian has a good point.  Maybe the Baldwin filter is not dual direction.  It really seems to me that something has to be holding the filter media in place.
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2013, 08:44:51 AM »

Brian has a good point.  Maybe the Baldwin filter is not dual direction.  It really seems to me that something has to be holding the filter media in place.

I have pictures of the inside and outside of the original Farr EcoLite 62891 that was on the bus when we bought it, the Wix 46891 we installed shortly after, and the current failed Baldwin PA2721.

Interestingly - the Baldwin is the only one of the three with a metal mesh at all.

The Baldwin has a metal mesh on the core of the filter tube (the inlet side in our application), and what looks to be some sort of orange rubber bands on the outside (the outlet side).

The Wix and Farr have straps or rings that appear to be made of glue, on both the inside and outside of the filter cylinder.  And there are more of them than the Baldwin has rubber bands.

All three filters have a very similar pleated paper design - the key difference that sets the Baldwin apart is the metal mesh / rubber bands  instead of glue straps.

Baldwin's product guide for the PA2721 does not give airflow or directional specs, other than saying it is a direct replacement for the Farr C62891. And the Farr is explicitly dual-directional.

I may start another thread posting the pictures of all three filters for comparison purposes.

Cheers,

   - Chris
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2013, 10:50:12 AM »

I think all you guys are pissing in the wind trying to blame Baldwin for the failure a bus being in high humidity all the filter manufactures made a air filter for high humidity and they were in Fl for a year it doesn't get much more humid than FL and who knows the age of the filter when they purchased it  

The engine has had problems before or it would not be bored to 0.020 that's a bunch to clean up a cylinder most of those can be clean with 1,2,3 or 4 size liner or 0.10 at the most I cleaned all of Doyle's cylinders up with number 3 liners   

It had blow by when they came by here I didn't say anything because they had already paid for the bus  

A filter would not cause just 2 out of 8 cylinders to be bad probably a bad job to start with someone drove those 2 in with a board and hammer and didn't worry about if the spacing was right or not likely was one that just said give me the money type

 I am not buying the air filter theory people flip the emergency shut down on those all the time I never saw that take out 2 cylinders and I have dug out filters that were suck into the intake before but it does makes for good reading

 We will probably never know what caused the problem only speculation and lots of guess work
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 11:08:00 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2013, 12:29:46 PM »

It's a lost art finding guys that can fit the   71 series liners..   

Has anyone looked to see if there is a turbo block with less rebuilds on it?  Plus 3 liners???

I'd be curious to see what the mainline bore is?

Clifford,  with the 71's that you have seen over the years.   What is the AVERAGE engine block bored to in 2013?

The marine industry has very tight standards..    Standard cranks..   
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luvrbus
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2013, 12:50:21 PM »

I haven't saw but one of the new styles bored it was 0.010 and I tossed it  most of the time they are standard or 1,2,3,or 4 liners Doyle s engine had 7 number 1's and 1 number 2 liner size and I honed those out to fit number 3's I have 2- 8v71's here the new style engine they are standard bore  

The old dry blocks you see those bored to 0.030 then they are ready for the scrap yard people screw the line bores up also some grind the main bearing cap instead of buying new caps then bore to save 100 bucks a cap and I will not use a ground crank period
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 01:03:41 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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technomadia
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2013, 03:24:36 PM »

It had blow by when they came by here I didn't say anything because they had already paid for the bus  

This isn't the first time that we've seen you mention, in public, that you spotted problems in our bus when we brought her up to you, but chose not to mention it until *after* we came here to the boards with related problems.

We went out of our way to bring the bus up to you at your invitation to have it looked over, to get your honest assessment, and for you to give us pointers on what potential problems we might be dealing with down the road.

You changed a leaky o-ring on the power steering pump, told us it "sounds like you have a strong runner", and congratulated us for getting real lucky with a bus that you thought would serve us well for years to come.

We didn't want to be told we had lucked into a perfect engine - we knew we were dealing with a mystery engine and had made our purchase offer with that in mind. We wanted honest feedback.  We were prepared for making a decision to do potential considerable repairs or even scrapping the bus before beginning to invest in making her truly our own with our upgrades.  

 - CnC

Modified to add this clarification: We're not bringing this up because we expected a full disclosure from luvrbus at the time, and nor did we expect anyone would be able to able to spot every single problem the bus might have without doing a full take down.  What upsets us is that when we have problems, we've seen him post comments implying that he had spotted a potential related problem, but didn't want to tell us.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 03:58:19 PM by technomadia » Logged

Cherie and Chris / www.technomadia.com
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luvrbus
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2013, 05:13:50 PM »

Hey Cherie or Chris when someone has bought and paid for a bus they are proud of it as you 2 no way I am going to say what all is wrong it's not my nature just ask Van why make people fell bad on a purchase after the fact you may not agree and I don't care.

As far as saying you had a strong runner I doubt that was was said because I do not use those words when a 8v71 is in the picture I still think you got a nice bus for 8 grand


 I never told you anything about the engine it was pointless then and still is to me, you really went out of your way 20 miles from your friends at Lake Havasu  

If you wanted a opinion that should have happen before the purchase the oil leak and air leak under the drivers where the only 2 items I was ask about now tell the board how much you were charged   on to act 4
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 05:27:43 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2013, 05:17:48 PM »

They say it is all in the hook, the main title, that is what captures the reader.

This title "A 'Boring' Question re: 8V71" just seems appropriate here.  A 52 year old bus, and everyone is surprised it has a blown engine.

Incredible. 

Take your licks and move on, this is getting to be old news, air filters indeed.

BCO
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2013, 05:27:01 PM »

Wow!!!  Huh Roll Eyes Huh

The vitriol, rancor, and general curmudgeoness on this board is... well... it is what it is I suppose.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 05:30:12 PM by Geom » Logged

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