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Author Topic: A 'Boring' Question re: 8V71  (Read 2964 times)
technomadia
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« on: June 29, 2013, 06:00:23 PM »

So first.. a quick update.

The shop got our 8V71 disassembled this past week - and the most substantial damage is two of the cylinder sleeves on the lower bank with two them being brittle enough to fall apart when coming out (pic below), and the rest of the sleeves showing signs of minor scoring from heat/debris.  The heads, block, cam shaft and crank shaft are thus far looking to be good.

One possible concern they noted as they were closing up shop on Friday afternoon, is that the holes in the block had previously been bored to 020. They are concerned that the two holes surrounding the more substantially damaged sleeves may possibly have some warping from the heat - as the sleeves needed to be pryed out. Several 2-stroke techs visually checked it out and said it looks good and they aren't concerned - but measurements will be taken on Monday morning to be sure before we move forward.

Obviously, the holes can be safely bored to 030, and use the oversized sleeves to match. And that's probably what most of you living outside an official DD shop would do?

However, the shop is saying that officially DD doesn't consider that within their specifications - and thus it could limit the official Detroit Diesel warranty they send us off with.

To best be armed with information Monday morning... is 030 considered outside official spec, and thus place limitations on the DD parts & labor warranty for the rebuild? Are there any concerns with that approach if it comes to it? 

We've had excellent direct communication with the crew here, spent several hours shadowing them each step of the way, gotten to know several of our techs personally while living here.. and don't suspect they're using scare tactics to upsell us or anything, but, as luvrbus says.. we're also keeping a close eye on our purse.

Any thoughts (besides the obvious 'don't go to an official DD shop' remarks)?

 - Cherie

PS. The primary culprit of the cause of all of this is still the failed air filter we posted about previously.

 
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2013, 06:15:20 PM »

Can't answer your question, but wanted to let you know that after seeing the picture of your air filter I immediately changed mine.  It was still within mileage specs but getting kind of old. 

Since there is a steel mesh on the outside of my filter (is yours the same?), which I would think is there to make sure the pleats do not unfurl as happened to you.  I wonder if the filter was defective to begin with or something in the canister damaged the mesh.
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2013, 06:43:25 PM »

When they put the dial bore micrometer in the bore they will see right away.   Any damage in the bore will show up and push those holes to the next size..  If they mike out within spec, keep it at .020"
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2013, 08:34:12 PM »

Can't answer your question, but wanted to let you know that after seeing the picture of your air filter I immediately changed mine.  It was still within mileage specs but getting kind of old. 

Since there is a steel mesh on the outside of my filter (is yours the same?), which I would think is there to make sure the pleats do not unfurl as happened to you.  I wonder if the filter was defective to begin with or something in the canister damaged the mesh.

Hi Lin.. glad our experience is bringing awareness to stuff.

Ours had steel on the intake side, but not the outflow side. On the visible side of the pleats, all that was there are some rubber-ish looking bands to hold them together. We've not dissected the canister yet, as the shop is helping us document a claim with Baldwin in case it was a defect - and their instructions specifically say to leave it untampered.

 - Cherie
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 03:47:58 AM »

You can visually inspect a cylinder bore to fail it if there is easily visible damage, but you indeed need the bore micrometers to pass it.  You need to measure it for size first, and for roundness and taper.  On the filter, the Donaldson site says that size and spec filter is dual-direction, but maybe the Baldwin version of it is not.  That would be a question I would definitely ask just to make sure.

Brian
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 04:29:09 AM »

  Place limitations on warranty and rebuild? Maybe another block should be considered as at .030 you are done if it has issues down the road needing a bore increase, unless .040 is available.I guess it would depend on what another block would cost. Anyway, it still depends on whether it'll clean up and whether any cracks show up.
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2013, 07:09:13 AM »

Brian has a good point.  Maybe the Baldwin filter is not dual direction.  It really seems to me that something has to be holding the filter media in place.
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2013, 08:44:51 AM »

Brian has a good point.  Maybe the Baldwin filter is not dual direction.  It really seems to me that something has to be holding the filter media in place.

I have pictures of the inside and outside of the original Farr EcoLite 62891 that was on the bus when we bought it, the Wix 46891 we installed shortly after, and the current failed Baldwin PA2721.

Interestingly - the Baldwin is the only one of the three with a metal mesh at all.

The Baldwin has a metal mesh on the core of the filter tube (the inlet side in our application), and what looks to be some sort of orange rubber bands on the outside (the outlet side).

The Wix and Farr have straps or rings that appear to be made of glue, on both the inside and outside of the filter cylinder.  And there are more of them than the Baldwin has rubber bands.

All three filters have a very similar pleated paper design - the key difference that sets the Baldwin apart is the metal mesh / rubber bands  instead of glue straps.

Baldwin's product guide for the PA2721 does not give airflow or directional specs, other than saying it is a direct replacement for the Farr C62891. And the Farr is explicitly dual-directional.

I may start another thread posting the pictures of all three filters for comparison purposes.

Cheers,

   - Chris
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2013, 10:50:12 AM »

I think all you guys are pissing in the wind trying to blame Baldwin for the failure a bus being in high humidity all the filter manufactures made a air filter for high humidity and they were in Fl for a year it doesn't get much more humid than FL and who knows the age of the filter when they purchased it  

The engine has had problems before or it would not be bored to 0.020 that's a bunch to clean up a cylinder most of those can be clean with 1,2,3 or 4 size liner or 0.10 at the most I cleaned all of Doyle's cylinders up with number 3 liners   

It had blow by when they came by here I didn't say anything because they had already paid for the bus  

A filter would not cause just 2 out of 8 cylinders to be bad probably a bad job to start with someone drove those 2 in with a board and hammer and didn't worry about if the spacing was right or not likely was one that just said give me the money type

 I am not buying the air filter theory people flip the emergency shut down on those all the time I never saw that take out 2 cylinders and I have dug out filters that were suck into the intake before but it does makes for good reading

 We will probably never know what caused the problem only speculation and lots of guess work
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 11:08:00 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2013, 12:29:46 PM »

It's a lost art finding guys that can fit the   71 series liners..   

Has anyone looked to see if there is a turbo block with less rebuilds on it?  Plus 3 liners???

I'd be curious to see what the mainline bore is?

Clifford,  with the 71's that you have seen over the years.   What is the AVERAGE engine block bored to in 2013?

The marine industry has very tight standards..    Standard cranks..   
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2013, 12:50:21 PM »

I haven't saw but one of the new styles bored it was 0.010 and I tossed it  most of the time they are standard or 1,2,3,or 4 liners Doyle s engine had 7 number 1's and 1 number 2 liner size and I honed those out to fit number 3's I have 2- 8v71's here the new style engine they are standard bore  

The old dry blocks you see those bored to 0.030 then they are ready for the scrap yard people screw the line bores up also some grind the main bearing cap instead of buying new caps then bore to save 100 bucks a cap and I will not use a ground crank period
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 01:03:41 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2013, 03:24:36 PM »

It had blow by when they came by here I didn't say anything because they had already paid for the bus  

This isn't the first time that we've seen you mention, in public, that you spotted problems in our bus when we brought her up to you, but chose not to mention it until *after* we came here to the boards with related problems.

We went out of our way to bring the bus up to you at your invitation to have it looked over, to get your honest assessment, and for you to give us pointers on what potential problems we might be dealing with down the road.

You changed a leaky o-ring on the power steering pump, told us it "sounds like you have a strong runner", and congratulated us for getting real lucky with a bus that you thought would serve us well for years to come.

We didn't want to be told we had lucked into a perfect engine - we knew we were dealing with a mystery engine and had made our purchase offer with that in mind. We wanted honest feedback.  We were prepared for making a decision to do potential considerable repairs or even scrapping the bus before beginning to invest in making her truly our own with our upgrades.  

 - CnC

Modified to add this clarification: We're not bringing this up because we expected a full disclosure from luvrbus at the time, and nor did we expect anyone would be able to able to spot every single problem the bus might have without doing a full take down.  What upsets us is that when we have problems, we've seen him post comments implying that he had spotted a potential related problem, but didn't want to tell us.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 03:58:19 PM by technomadia » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2013, 05:13:50 PM »

Hey Cherie or Chris when someone has bought and paid for a bus they are proud of it as you 2 no way I am going to say what all is wrong it's not my nature just ask Van why make people fell bad on a purchase after the fact you may not agree and I don't care.

As far as saying you had a strong runner I doubt that was was said because I do not use those words when a 8v71 is in the picture I still think you got a nice bus for 8 grand


 I never told you anything about the engine it was pointless then and still is to me, you really went out of your way 20 miles from your friends at Lake Havasu  

If you wanted a opinion that should have happen before the purchase the oil leak and air leak under the drivers where the only 2 items I was ask about now tell the board how much you were charged   on to act 4
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2013, 05:17:48 PM »

They say it is all in the hook, the main title, that is what captures the reader.

This title "A 'Boring' Question re: 8V71" just seems appropriate here.  A 52 year old bus, and everyone is surprised it has a blown engine.

Incredible. 

Take your licks and move on, this is getting to be old news, air filters indeed.

BCO
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2013, 05:27:01 PM »

Wow!!!  Huh Roll Eyes Huh

The vitriol, rancor, and general curmudgeoness on this board is... well... it is what it is I suppose.
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2013, 05:32:44 PM »

Wow!!!  Huh Roll Eyes Huh

The vitriol, rancor, and general curmudgeoness on this board is... well... it is what it is I suppose.



Curmudgeoness!   Don't drag me into this!
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2013, 05:34:24 PM »


Curmudgeoness!   Don't drag me into this!

LOL, note: no actual curmudgeons we harmed in the making of this post  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2013, 09:43:03 PM »

A 52 year old bus, and everyone is surprised it has a blown engine.

Incredible. 

Take your licks and move on, this is getting to be old news, air filters indeed.

I don't think we've ever said we're surprised by any of this? Has anyone stated this?

If anything - as we've said repeatedly - we were surprised that we've had two essentially trouble free years with an engine that was such an unknown quantity.


I guess what is most surprising for us is how many people seem to have an issue with us on this forum sharing about our experience, and soliciting wisdom and advice.

Isn't that what these forums are for?


Anyway - if you don't find our threads interesting or useful...  uhm, you don't need to read them.

   - Chris
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2013, 10:28:53 PM »

As far as saying you had a strong runner I doubt that was was said because I do not use those words when a 8v71 is in the picture


The Internet never forgets: http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=21688.0

"The air cleaner was the only real mess I saw on your bus and it was air tight so that wasn't a problem to me( Chris may have reservations now) a strong runner, not many oil leaks,easy air leaks to fix, new tires and wheels I didn't see problems but 4 days to change a air cleaner was worst than I thought lol so come around this winter and we will get that hiccup fixed IMO you and Chris did good on the purchase nice ride"

No mention of 'blow by', btw.

I never told you anything about the engine it was pointless then and still is to me, you really went out of your way 20 miles from your friends at Lake Havasu


You have previously made a statement about our engine on the forum here, and in person when we met you.

Not that we expected you to be omniscient and catch anything at all.

You had previously made it very clear that there's little that can be caught without fully taking an engine apart, and thus a mechanics pre-purchase opinion really doesn't mean much for giving one peace of mind. You also clearly stated you don't do pre-purchase mechanical inspections (you were the closest 2-stroke expert to Yuma we could locate at the time), and you advised us to 'roll the dice' and buy the bus - and if anything happened, give the wrecker your address. 

(Would you like the link to that old forum thread as well?) 

We were actually surprised at how little you found to be concerned with when we did bring the bus to you. We would not at all have been upset or disappointed if you had pointed out anything that seemed unusual or troublesome - that is exactly why we had accepted your invitation to come by even though the bus had made its maiden voyage ok. But it seems we did not understand the nature of your invitation, or your "nature" for wanting to leave folks feeling warm and fuzzy about their purchase, instead of pointing out things so clearly obvious that you remember them 2 years later. 

And it is 60 miles each way, not 20. True, not hundreds of miles - but also not trivial.

now tell the board how much you were charged   on to act 4


You invited us over, we did offer to pay you and offered to take you out to dinner. All offers that were declined, and we truly appreciated the generosity of your time & the o-ring you installed. 

What is especially confusing is how you are now chiming in to say that you remember hearing something wrong with our engine two years ago - but you purposely never mentioned it to us??? Even after publicly stating 'I didn't see problems'.

Are you thinking of a different bus and/or engine now?

You didn't even mention this two weeks ago when we were initially troubleshooting and it could have been useful.

So why mention it now for the first time?


Luvrbus - We do 'luv' and appreciate you. You are often referred to as the "Yoda of Buses"...  and as we've come to understand - it's for your inarguable wisdom, as well as your reputation for spawning confusion, leaving out critical bits of information at important junctures, and for talking in riddles (without punctuation).

At least Darth Vader always gave Luke straight and clear answers. Cheesy


  - Chris
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« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2013, 05:03:17 AM »

As part of this autopsy, you might include his boundless hospitality and generosity to the bus community for the last 20 years.

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« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2013, 05:54:17 AM »

WOW..
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« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2013, 06:22:55 AM »

Chris why don't you just be truthful and tell people with all the hits and and you staying in the lime light the main reason for all your BS is to sell books call 713-520-1784 they have a place for sell and stop all the drama you are not here to help it's only to line your pockets and the mods let you get away with it  Roll Eyes on looking back now I probably helped you do it 

Very sad you thinking you thinking people can be used we are not all  dumb


This is my last post here if people need help they can PM me or find me on the BNO,Eagle,MCI or Prevost boards you have made a mockery out of this board trying to sell the 59 cents books  

The writing skills I just don't use the software like you I have it but choose not to use it

 As Don said here is blowing kisses to you not from lips but from my @$# kiss it
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« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2013, 07:37:18 AM »

How on earth did we get to this point???  We (as a collective community of bus conversion fans on this forum) can't afford to lose anyone!   We need lovrbus.  We need Chris and Cherie.  We need the expertise, the opinions, the collective support of everyone. 

Mark
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« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2013, 07:40:47 AM »

I lurk around here a lot ,,
But this time I'm gonna comment ,,#1 ,,The first time I met you 2,,First thought in my mind ,,
They look like  they want something for free,,,
I don't like people that attempt to make a living off other peoples sweat ,Especially other bus nuts,
Now your also an English major,huh..How dare you criticize anyone here for their grammer,,and all the good hearted folks here that have tried to help!.
Maybe its time you moved along ,,I'm sick and tired of your endless  rambling and crying,,
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« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2013, 07:50:24 AM »



Yeahsus!

Bad Spellers of the world Untie!

BCO

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« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2013, 08:18:36 AM »

Alright guys, it's really hot out West, but let's not let that heat up the conversations.  As a person with limited mechanical skills, I greatly appreciate postings from similar folk because it brings out answers and perspectives that, aside from being interesting, may help me understand things better.  Obviously, for this strategy to be useful there must also be knowledgeable postings too.

I know first hand that Clifford will try to be as positive as possible when glancing at a bus we already own.  I think the only thing he said about ours a couple of years ago was that he liked    the new gear shift lever (talk about trying to find something good to say).

However, some of us must understand that in our hunt for understanding it can become annoying to keep rephrasing a question that has already been answered as well as it is going to be.  That is not to say that you should not keep asking until you are satisfied, but just that you can expect to get some blowback and should be ready to be diplomatic.  

So please bring it down a couple of notches.  While it is quite easy to create enmity, it is often more difficult to dissipate it.  Especially when the rhetoric has reached to level of pointless indignation.

Pete- That is just not helping.  We are not looking for villains, and there actually are none-- just regular, good people with a misunderstanding or disagreement.  It is certainly not one's duty or prerogative to declare who should and should not post here.  Personal attacks are never productive on an informational bulletin board.
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« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2013, 09:11:52 AM »

The amount if vitriol aimed at C&C for asking questions lately I haven't understood, I personally prefer a thread which is kept going by the attempts to clarify the often contradicting info of posters.   It seems that for some reason some on this board seem to take offense that their answer isn't immediately accepted as gospel and the thread immediately comes grinding to conclusion.

This thread particular seems to have 2 offenses by posters that should they consider apologizing to each other for:
1.  Clifford for publicly posting an "I knew it all along" that the techno engine had blowby 2 years ago and was of suspect condition, while telling them it was fine at the time and posting publicly that all was well.  Why be "nice" in person, only to blindside people with info in an Internet forum "AFTER" a problem has occurred?
2.  The Technomads for taking offense at this and slamming Clifford publicly and turning "being a bus yoda" into a negative.  Your comments were over the top I felt and unbecoming.

This bus community is small, we need you guys to get along and we need the contributions both have to share.  Clifford we need your knowledge.  Chris and Cherie we need your emthusiasm, transparency, and willingness to share.
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« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2013, 09:26:49 AM »

2.  The Technomads for taking offense at this and slamming Clifford publicly and turning "being a bus yoda" into a negative.  Your comments were over the top I felt and unbecoming.

Point well taken.  If the Yoda descriptors were taken negatively, we do sincerely apologize for that - to Clifford, and to everyone.  We very much meant those to turn the conversation to geek humor, not as a slam of Clifford or the Jedi Force.

However, we are done with being on the receiving end of vitriol and cheap shots for continuing to share and ask questions.

 - Cherie

 
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« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2013, 09:54:29 AM »

im with Mark, (one lapper) on this one, being a newbie at all this, I have learned a great deal from both Clifford, Technomadia and alll the other peope on  the board. This is such a great forum, lets not ruin it.
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« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2013, 10:12:58 AM »

Good morning all,

I'm going to lock this thread now -

 - I have such huge amounts of respect for Clifford & learned much over the years - Thank you Clifford & hoping we can meet soon!!  Technomads; really like your approach & knowledge sharing & how you bring in everyone to the discussion - we all learn - Thank you!!

I hate to see this between folks I appreciate.  So - locked for now & hoping this too shall pass.   Smiley

Kind Regards to all, Phil
    

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