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Author Topic: My brand new Detroit Diesel engine...or sanitizing a Facebook page...  (Read 1769 times)
eagle19952
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« on: July 11, 2013, 04:27:10 PM »

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If they can get it on the Dyno, they said that would do the break in period for us. Otherwise, they'll be giving us full instructions.

serendipity says... we're going to Burning Man! Well, once the bus is rolling, that is.

Bonjooor... I found this on the internet...

Can anyone tell me if there is any dust at Burning Man ? how small are the microns ?

How could an 8v71 not be able to mount a Dynamometer ?

is it easy to sanitize a FB page ?

What is the break-in period off dyno for a DD 8v71 ?

if I have anymore ??'s  I'll edit this post....

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eagle19952
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 05:28:29 PM »

If a Detroit Diesel engine is broken in at a higher altitude, will it have more horse power ?

If your final crank clearance is measured with the engine crankshaft up...will the clearance be correct ?

Which is meant to support the crankshaft's static weight, the block or the caps ?
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bevans6
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 05:33:28 PM »

I always figured the engine was broke in after the first full power pull but that's with race engines.  If you are measuring crank clearance the crank must be standing straight up on it's tail, or it will droop - that's the only way to get a solid measurement.  Now, measuring for a bent crank requires a whole different set of gauges.

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
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1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
eagle19952
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 05:50:57 PM »

Let me rephrase:
if the crank is measured, bearing caps selected, installation commencing,would the outcome be best if plastigage or appropriate brass  stock were used to confirm oil clearance with the block rotated with the caps pointing up to the engine spirits or down ?
Or would consider this a wasted step ?
Or is this a step ?

is there a rotational torque spec for a dry crankshaft...pre lubed crankshaft ?
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NonHippieBus
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 07:16:09 PM »

I get where you're headed.  But I don't understand why you are rattling people cages. 

Thought this board was occupied by an older thus more "mature" patronage....recent events have proven otherwise
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HighTechRedneck
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 07:42:09 PM »


Thought this board was occupied by an older thus more "mature" patronage....recent events have proven otherwise

I agree.  And in general it is.  Unfortunately every once in a while there is someone who can't seem to "let it go".

Eagle19952 - The intent and target of your post is obvious.  Let's don't start that mess back up here.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 01:08:19 PM by HighTechRedneck » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 01:13:25 PM »

Eagle19952 pm'd me and explained that his post was meant to offer helpful questions that need to be considered, and a touch of humor.

The unfortunate fray that happened on here recently has left the newer, less bus engine experienced members, and the Moderating Team hypersensitive to things that appear to be belittling the less experienced members.

I apologize for misreading the intent of this thread.
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bevans6
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 01:29:14 PM »

I thought I was getting slow, I couldn't see anything "off" about this thread - except - where I come from, real engine builders don't use plasti-gauge to check clearances, they use those awkward and expensive inside micrometers or dial bore gauges to measure bores and compare them to journals, and an Engineers straight-edge to confirm the bores are straight (talk about an expensive piece of very straight cast iron...).  Unless you like working while lying down on your back, the block needs to be "caps up" - and putting a crank in dry is an offence against both nature and the gods of power...   Grin  Finally a straight crank installed with copious 40 weight oil in a true block with good clearances should spin with two fingers on a web.  It's a great feeling...

Edit:  I had a block come back once with the main bearing bores not straight.  It took me weeks to fix, and I had to because it was a very valuable block.  It was an Austin 1070cc block that I built a completely custom 1100cc Formula Junior engine with to fit into a 1963 Cooper Formula Junior car.  I had to make a new rear main cap for it, and since those caps are doweled to the block with hollow dowels around the bolts, I had to fixture and bore the dowel holes to within 0.0005" for diameter and location, and I did it on a standard Bridgeport...  Took a long time.  Bridgeports are not really intended to do sub-thou work and you have to really coax them.

Brian
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 01:47:09 PM by bevans6 » Logged

1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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eagle19952
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 01:52:56 PM »

And really seriously I am trying by every tact available to me, after having gathered quips and quotes from around the net, to sincerely prod and cajole a realization of the peril one....ANYONE might encounter following a new engine rebuild with a 5 figure invoice.

here as copied from my conversation with high tech and hippiebus:
CUT and PASTE:

Yup its their coach and their money and their life...but anyone who would not make them aware that for the money they are spending, it is criminal too even contemplate taking that motor off the floor to reinstall straight to a dustbowl...without ALL the benefits of the dyno process.
Sure it is obvious that they are novices and are soliciting advice from persons who have had countless incidences of breakdowns and repeated costly failures...and pockets deep enough to endure..
So ignoring at will one who might have a suggestion...from 40 years of operational and repair experience just because he isn't in the top 10,and really the maturity of one who would ignore without some
response is who is childish.
So you really don't KNOW where I am headed
PS I am glad the thread was locked.
That was my point.
BUT as C%C head into the dust, hopefully with a better than needed and properly engineered air intake built out of approved materials and not galvanized stove pipe...they will possibly not kiss another motor good-bye and assuredly their warranty...(SARCASM)<so yeah I am definitely one whose goal in life is to rag on and belittle...>
SMH>Pass this on as you wish.
Donald P Hann

Perhaps I am not a diplomat, but I do care.
and hopefully anyone who spends that kind of money will realize the full life expectancy of their investment by demanding a dyno tune and run in.
or IIRC...200 hrs of at load operation <DD's minimum post major overhaul requirement> prior to subjecting their engine to the dust, a DD's worst enemy.

Having said that, many warranty questions can be avoided if the motor is run-in on the dyno.


Having made anyone aware of any potential pitfalls, I have accomplished my mission. Smiley
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eagle19952
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2013, 02:00:52 PM »

PS. To any and all old and new....
Please accept my heartfelt apology for my lack of tact, or poor approach to express my point.
I am a huge DD fan, and only tried to help.
PSS I lean towards the right and Eagle is my vice.
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bevans6
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2013, 02:31:10 PM »

"I lean towards the right"...

But do you dress left or right...  (which trouser leg does the tailor add relief to at the upper region?)

No one needs to know ( except the tailor), it was a rhetorical interrogatory brought to mind by a memory of a friend of mine, a British fellow of impeccable background who slid down into a particularly slim race car and when faced with the 6 point seatbelts asked "Do you dress left or right, would not want to get that part wrong in this car...".

Brian  (still not being PC but trying to make fun wherever I can)
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
technomadia
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2013, 03:14:44 PM »

Uh.. wow.  

We are quite insulted by this posting.  

While we can see and appreciate the good intentions of the warning & questions -  why not contact us directly with the concern and warning, instead of quoting without attribution some short out of context replies to individuals found on our Facebook page (which are generally done from our smartphones, and not ever complete pictures) and quoting from private e-mails exchanged with others?

I fail to see how we are 'childish' for not responding to the advice we have received?  We have now talked with dozens on the phone, dozens on the forums, dozens in direct e-mail and hundreds on our FB page and blog. We have individually interacted with and thanked as many of those as we possibly can while still keeping sane in our daily lives. What advice is it that we have totally ignored?  

We're running a business, doing our own bus projects (did you catch our AC went out too, and yesterday was spent replacing it? And today we are grinding out rust on the roof?), trying our best to 'live blog' the rebuild to share and spending lots of time in the shop with our mechanics trying to soak up as much as we can so that we can understand as much as we can.  We're also continuing to field dozens of questions a day from our own blog & FB readers, to help them along their journeys into nomadism - our pay it forward gift.

If anyone feels that we have not appropriately responded to them for their advice, it is not on purpose - and we offer our apologies if you are offended by us for seemingly ignoring you.

We are simply overwhelmed with all of the advice that has come our way, and with everything we are trying to juggle - and trying our very best to wade through it all to make the right decisions for ourselves.  But we are deeply grateful for all of the wisdom so many have been willing to share with us, even though it usually directly counteracts every other piece of advice we have received from equally qualified individuals.

Why is it necessary to ridicule and make passive aggressive posts against us like this?


We do not see this as an attempt at humor, but as an attack.

 - CnC

« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 03:26:48 PM by technomadia » Logged

Cherie and Chris / www.technomadia.com
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« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2013, 03:34:05 PM »

CnC--Regardless of all the honest advice, useful and not, that has been forthcoming, I would agree that this is not at all a constructive thread.  When asking for opinions here, one is under no obligation to follow what is offered, and I see no reason that anyone should get upset by that.  It's just amazing that some have bitten into this so deeply that they are losing a balanced perspective.

Anyway, don't waste any energy on being insulted.  There is a Buddhist saying that goes something like, "He cheated me.  He robbed me.  He insulted me-- He who says this will not attain Nirvana." 
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2013, 03:41:34 PM »

Anyway, don't waste any energy on being insulted. 

We believe that a community should enforce standards of decency in discourse, and belittling and passive aggressive attacks should be soundly rejected and declared as unwelcome.

If it comes to it, we will just not waste energy here.

There are so many great people in the bus universe, and this is a great place to make initial connections. But way too many people have been driven away too.

  - Chris
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chessie4905
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2013, 03:55:06 PM »

Use your ignore button as needed.
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technomadia
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2013, 03:58:50 PM »

Use your ignore button as needed.

Yes.. that is always an option.

But why should individuals be supported in belittling others in public?
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Cherie and Chris / www.technomadia.com
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HighTechRedneck
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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2013, 04:08:02 PM »

Chris, after the haranguing that you and Cherie got on that recent thread, I fully understand your feelings about this one.  In fact, as you see above, that was my initial read of it and what prompted my initial action on the thread.  And I reported the thread and my action to the rest of the Moderating Team as is our practice.  The Moderating Team shares your concern about the belittling or attacking of newer/younger members.

Then Donald pm'd me the message he has quoted above and it did cause me to re-read it with a less cynical eye.  I also reviewed his posts for the last few weeks.  I could be wrong, but I think it likely that he did not mean it harshly.  I think that he was in his own way attempting to provoke further thought on some of the issues you are currently addressing. Albeit mixed with an attempt at humor that perhaps did not translate well in the flat media of text on the Internet, and probably was too soon on the heels of the recent fray.

The Moderating Team will be watching this thread very closely to ensure it does not turn into a flamewar.  And we already are keeping an elevated level of attention on posts for now till things cool.

You and Cherie are friends with many folks in the bus nut "real world", myself included, and are among friends here on the forum even if recent events call that into question.  It is my sincere hope that you will continue to share with us here and not back away.

Going to the dyno point brought to this thread from elsewhere - I definitely hope they do run it on the dyno.  You will be much more satisfied and confident long term doing that.

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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2013, 04:14:22 PM »

Hann just has a way with words lol I know what he is trying to say and I don't have a horse in the race and plan not to enter one either 

I don't have a Dyno so I just give a fresh engine 1800 rpm not the 2450 rpm
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 04:19:31 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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technomadia
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« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2013, 04:19:47 PM »

Going to the dyno point brought to this thread from elsewhere - I definitely hope they do run it on the dyno.  You will be much more satisfied and confident long term doing that.

Agreed - but we will be given a full one-year parts/labor warranty regardless of the dyno run.

Taking short tidbits out of context from FaceBook has no place here - that comment about whether or not they can dyno it is old news now.

The shop initially had some concerns about setting their dyno up to run "backwards", and to deal with the tilted GM oil pan setup.

Both of those issues seem likely to be solvable, so the dyno run should be able to happen now.

  - Chris
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« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2013, 04:27:23 PM »

Damn, I thought I had a thread here about engine rebuilding techniques and measuring instruments, and it's just a thread about CnC's insecurity about their choice of engine rebuilder...  Oh well, I got to tell a nice story about building a race engine for a Cooper T-56 car.

Chris - your engine is going to be fine, your chosen people are taking good care of you.  All of the comments about what your shop is doing have made me believe that they not only know what they are about, they care about the quality of their work.  Nothing but the best will come to you.



Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2013, 04:33:29 PM »

I would get that warranty in writing with bold letters the 1 year on parts is standard for all genuine DD parts the 1 year on labor I never heard of a DD dealer offering that all I know of are 90 days only on labor  

 A 1 year warranty on a bus that is used maybe 15,000 miles a year is not much to began with it's common knowledge all failures happen on a 8v71 within the first 500 miles of service after a rebuild,dynos are good but not a necessity IMO 

 I like the dyno at the wheels then one know what it is doing in the way of hp and torque the problem is most shops will not wheel dyno a old bus  
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 04:39:04 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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technomadia
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« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2013, 04:43:53 PM »

Many of the questions posed in this thread are EXCELLENT!  And we fully encourage others to look at what we're going through and create discussion points out of them. That's why we are willing to share about what we are going through - if we're going through it, why not help others learn too?  

That part, we fully concur with.. and are glad that others are able to learn from what we are learning through this process. Rock on with the conversations and learning.

What we are not keen to is the need to do so in a disrespectful manner.

Our words "quoted" at the beginning of the thread are from another medium and from two unrelated conversations. They were used completely out of context.. and strung together to sound like we were allowing the shop to plop a brand new rebuild engine into our bay and driving directly to Burning Man with undersized air filtration!

Wow, that paints us to look like complete idiots... especially when the poster follows-up using words like novice and childish to indirectly refer to us.

As Chris has already cleared up, the question about the ability to dyno is old news. And Burning Man is not for well over a month after we're back on the road - with many miles and adventure inbetween for us. And yes, of course we will be paying careful attention to the dust and our air filtration - including having brand new filter replacements ready to go right after the event.    The majority of the 2-strokes this shop works on go out into the oil fields, where they are regularly exposed to high levels of dust - this shop seems well aware of what they are doing, and we have a lot of trust in them. We have no insecurity about our choice of rebuilder. 


We are very concerned about the BCM forums and how they reflect on the BCM brand, and the community as a whole. The level of hostility that has become a part of the experience here is becoming less and less worthwhile to put forth energy.

 - Cherie

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Cherie and Chris / www.technomadia.com
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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2013, 05:02:51 PM »

I don't know, all I do is sweep the floor.

--Geoff
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eagle19952
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2013, 05:28:30 PM »

well that seems a wasted apology.
and I did try to address it off this board via your fb page and found that I was no longer able to comment.
you can choose to see the good in someone or not.
I have told you that I do not translate well via the cyber page.
feel insulted if you want.. you were not.
I am now sorry that this thread was reopened.
you posted what ifs and I reflected on what ifs...
good luck.
ps that really means good luck.
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technomadia
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2013, 05:46:00 PM »

well that seems a wasted apology.
and I did try to address it off this board via your fb page and found that I was no longer able to comment.
you can choose to see the good in someone or not.
I have told you that I do not translate well via the cyber page.
feel insulted if you want.. you were not.
I am now sorry that this thread was reopened.
you posted what ifs and I reflected on what ifs...
good luck.
ps that really means good luck.


Were you the individual posting under a woman's first name with no last name indicated?

We were getting so confused by those postings, as the comments were never in reply to the subject matter replied on, and were often very short and asking questions we had already answered on the correct thread. We had no idea who it was, and certainly had no way to tie it back to any individual here on BCM.  We have over 2000 FB 'fans', most of whom we have no real world context for.  It would be impossible to know all of their diesel histories when FB provides no profiles, and especially when people don't post under their own names here or there.

If that was you.. 'banning' was not singling you or your advice specifically out.  It was trying to keep the FB posts organized and on topic. We're fielding a LOT of comments there, from such a variety of backgrounds and it's quite difficult to keep up.

Our apologies if you that was you and you took it personally. I'll chock it up to the 'not translating well to the cyber page' thing.

 - Cherie
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Cherie and Chris / www.technomadia.com
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eagle19952
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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2013, 05:56:11 PM »

in all of the confusion I had posted to fb when you accepted my like, that my wife Deborah has a FB page, and the PH was me...in that I am Donald P Hann and she being Deborah, and like you ( C&C ) we share her page because of her handicap , post traumatic brain injury aka TBI.
I realize you share your page for a different reason.
maybe I am too short and not to the point verbatim but my points and posts are all genuine concerns for your best outcome.
Best Wishes.
were I nearby and you in need  and neither knew the other cyberly you would never know who was there helping you...and I would.
And I have no doubt we would laugh about this and go... really that can't be you.
yup this is me.
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2013, 06:17:04 PM »

Again.. our apologies - the banning was NOT about you personally.

You actually joined our blog's public FB page - which is managed entirely differently than a personal one (we each also have)... FB doesn't even share with us when someone 'likes' our page, we don't even get the option of accepting likes or not. With interacting with over 2000 'fans' (plus all our blog readers, individual e-mails, chat requests, etc) - and FB giving no easy way for us to look up the history of what someone has posted before - it's very easy for the details to get lost in the shuffle.

You may have introduced yourself along the way, but it's not like we have a quick access contact card to refer to later. Our brains can only absorb so much information right now, and we are honestly operating in an overwhelmed state right now.

FB is not the greatest medium for some things, that is for sure. But we do enjoy it for sharing with a wide audience.

And we agree - most in person meetings are very different than online interactions Smiley  We do appreciate the positive energy and concern for the best outcome.
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