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Author Topic: Webasto Hook-up  (Read 2114 times)
Tikvah
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« on: August 15, 2013, 01:07:46 PM »

I'm at the point of working out my heating system.  All the coach stuff is gone (except the driver heat).

I've considered a house furnace.  I've considered using my on-demand water heater with some kind of exchanger.  I've considered just a free-standing electric with my vent-free gas heater.  I've considered lots of things.  Now I'm looking at a used Webasto with pump on this board and I like the idea because that's what the nice buses have.  But I don't know how you guys run them.  Can anyone describe your system, or better yet, have a schematic?  I can get an water-to-air exchanger and put a fan behind it with duct work.  But, is that best.  What else?  I really don't know what  I need

Dave
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2013, 01:54:23 PM »

Dave, it depends on how much and where you are going to use your bus and how complicated or simple you want it to be.  The PO of our bus put in 2 Olympian Wave propane heaters and one electric toe kick heater.  They fulltimed for 8 years and then just left for the winters, ( they lived in Missouri), the other 12 years that they had the bus. Conversion was done in 83 and i don't think that they did much insulation as they did not plan to spend any time in cold climates. Also at that time there wasn't a lot of options on types of insulation like there is now days. We are in our 10th year of fulltiming and also avoid the cold as much as possible. We did add a cube heater and use that and the toe kick if we are plugged in. If not or if it is colder out we use the propane heaters.  Our rule of thumb is if we see frost we have been there too long and head south.  Grin   The problem i see with diesel or propane furnaces is the initial cost, the cost of running them, the cost of repairing them, and the space that they take up. I am retired and poor so i like to keep it simple and as cheap as i can, when i can, so that i can have, and spend the money, on things that i don't want to scrimp on.
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Jeremy
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2013, 02:33:54 PM »

There are lots of Webasto schematics available if you do some Googling - here's an example (not saying this necessarily appropriate for you, just as an illustration):



Jeremy
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2013, 02:37:13 PM »

We don't know yet where we will be.  But I'm sure we will be in a colder climate than hot.  I can't take heat and sun at all.  Plus most of our family/friends are northern Michigan and northern Vermont.  Plus a son in North Dakota.
I would prefer never to go south, but I'm afraid of freezing pipes or worse.


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1989 MCI-102 A3
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2013, 03:10:49 PM »

 In that case the better your bus is insulated the less of a system you will need to heat it.  An Olympian Wave 8 uses 1/3 lb. of propane an hour....4.2 lbs of propane to a gallon, i just saw propane for $2.50 a gallon, you could run that heater for 12 hours on one gallon.  Wabasto, diesel at $4 a gallon, how many hours can you run on a gallon?  Guess i will google it and see. We have the Olympian 3, (1/8 lb. an hour) & 6, and they can roast us out after awhile.
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2013, 03:29:13 PM »

Doing a quick look i found that they use .4 gallons per hour to run. so for the same 12 hours you would use 4.8 gallons of diesel. Almost $20 for diesel compared to $2.50 for the propane,... and no battery usage for the propane heater either!  And nothing to break.  Smiley
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Tikvah
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2013, 03:35:21 PM »

Ed, is that a ventless gas heater?


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I couldn't repair my brakes, so I made my horn louder.
1989 MCI-102 A3
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Started in Cheboygan, Michigan (near the Mackinaw Bridge).  Now home is anywhere we park
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2013, 03:40:31 PM »

You're comparing apples to oranges here.  The Olympian Wave 8 is 8,000 BTU.  A Webasto is 40,000 to 80,000 BTU depending on model.  Most of the time the Webasto isn't going to be running non-stop.
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2013, 03:55:59 PM »

 Dave, yes. Google Olympian Wave heaters for info.  They make, or used to make 2 different sizes in two different models. I found this out after getting the bus home at the time, (6000 ft. elevation) and could not get them to stay lit. Found out that the PO had bought the cheaper models that won't work above 5000 ft.  They have them that will work up to 12,000 ft.  Guess he figured that he would stay lower than 5,000 ft. so did not need the higher priced ones.  No Belfert, i am comparing $ to $$$. We have a 3000 btu and a 6000 btu unit and they do a good job of heating when we need them, we don't need 40 to 80,000 btu. Grin  I can probably run the propane unit for the rest of my life on just what the cost of the Wabasto is.  Look how many posts there are about problems with them and the cost of repairing them.  Not much to go wrong with the Olympian units, and if they were to totally quit you could buy a new one for less than the control board for the Wabasto. 
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2013, 06:34:45 PM »

Ok Dave You Asked,,, Well, I have taken the advise here to heart. I do use the catalitic heater for emergencies, (aka , When we do not need it for long. The combustion byproducts can easily be dealt with for a short time),  , ,  and they are efficient. The diesel boilers are the $#!% if you are going to be dealing with cold weather for any length of time ( we like snowmobiling and skiing) . The propane ducted heaters work good If the powerpole does not have the juice. if you are plugged into 50 amp service why not use your electric heaters, as you are paying for it. For our use,,, a diesel boiler , a large battery bank, some efficient flat panel heaters, with some fan powered heat exchangers for extreems, or fast heat ups, do it 90 % of the time when we are traveling. When it is sitting ,, drained or plugged in and using powerpole electric heat. Oh yea, watch those diagrams as theysometimes show the expansion tank NOT as the highest spot in the system (BAD) What is a buffer tank?. If I only knew how we were going to use our bus it would have been easier. Oh yea, (from experience), you can Not heat a bus with an RV water heater.
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2013, 06:24:06 AM »

You wanted and now have a few options here Dave, Smiley  Another one that i just saw posted on a different board is some folks in Canada just bought a 5A and she wants to put in a small European wood stove.  Grin
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Tikvah
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2013, 07:18:25 AM »

The wood stove thing was considered.  I've seen some small pellet heaters that are really cool.. but not our thing. 

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't know what this phrase means "
Quote
The diesel boilers are the $#!% if you are going to be dealing with cold weather for any length of time
   Is that good or bad?

I'm thinking I might stick with my ventless gas heaters with electric heaters when I have a pole.  My biggest concern is the tanks below.  I might use some kind of blower to move air from the living space above to the rear bay and back.  The bays are not well insulated.

My bus has very good spray foam, but the ventless heaters created a lot of moisture that I don't like.  I'll keep searching.  I even considered a 40,000BTU house furnace with PVC venting through the floor.... what do you think?
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I couldn't repair my brakes, so I made my horn louder.
1989 MCI-102 A3
DD 6V92 Turbo, Alison
Tons of stuff to learn!
Started in Cheboygan, Michigan (near the Mackinaw Bridge).  Now home is anywhere we park
Jeremy
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2013, 07:20:54 AM »

...some folks in Canada just bought a 5A and she wants to put in a small European wood stove.  Grin


If you're a 'Traveller' (British term for modern-day gypsy types), your vehicle isn't complete if it doesn't have a wood burning stove chimney sticking through the roof!






















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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2013, 04:26:34 PM »

Sorry Dave, I meant they are good. I would put a proheat in the wet bay, they do not use much electric compared to a home furnace, and the heat will keep the bay warm.
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2013, 04:29:35 PM »

Dave, yes. Google Olympian Wave heaters for info.  They make, or used to make 2 different sizes in two different models. I found this out after getting the bus home at the time, (6000 ft. elevation) and could not get them to stay lit. Found out that the PO had bought the cheaper models that won't work above 5000 ft.  They have them that will work up to 12,000 ft.  Guess he figured that he would stay lower than 5,000 ft. so did not need the higher priced ones.  No Belfert, i am comparing $ to $$$. We have a 3000 btu and a 6000 btu unit and they do a good job of heating when we need them, we don't need 40 to 80,000 btu. Grin  I can probably run the propane unit for the rest of my life on just what the cost of the Wabasto is.  Look how many posts there are about problems with them and the cost of repairing them.  Not much to go wrong with the Olympian units, and if they were to totally quit you could buy a new one for less than the control board for the Wabasto. 

I understand the cost difference in buying the heaters up front.  My post was in reference to the fuel cost comparisons.  Yes, the Webasto may use more fuel per hour at full output, but it also produces 5 to 10 times as many BTUs of heat for that fuel.  

For many busnuts the Wave heater will work just fine.  I won't use ventless heaters in my bus because I have a Mr. Heater Big Buddy and the air starts to stink a little bit after it is in use for a time.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2013, 04:57:29 PM »

  There are lots of Webasto schematics available if you do some Googling - here's an example ...

     The first thing that jumps out at me in this if all the fans, pumps, etc (and the Webasto unit itself is an electricity gobbler) -- you're talking about big electric loads here for things that don't even make any heat.  Not saying it's not a great system, but consider all the electric power you'll need, in addition to the diesel fuel you'll be buying. 
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2013, 05:28:27 PM »

Some very crazy contraptions I think.
Back to the Fuel fired furnace, I have had the Aqua Hot system in my Foretravel for over 5 years, it uses 4 thermostats and circulation pumps for zones, bedroom, bath, front, basement, and engine warmer.  Not a simple looking setup, but it is in and works great. I have had it down to the -5f and all very comfy and no water freeze ups etc.  Down side, they can get costly if you need the motor or pump, other items are reasonable.  the UP side, mine has been very reliable and provides all the warmth needed or wanted, plus plenty hot water for great showers.
One other point, while driving, the boiler does not need to run much if any as the water is heated by the engine loop, keeping everyting warm & comfy.  While on the  boiler, it burns 1/3 gal per hour, but seems most say 2-3 gal a day at most, must more econ than the LPGas.
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2013, 06:04:16 PM »

Jeremy,  i kind of like the styling of the Abingdon Coach, what is it? Looks to be about 30 ft. or a little over 9 meters for you? Grin
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2013, 07:03:42 PM »

Jeremy,  i kind of like the styling of the Abingdon Coach, what is it? Looks to be about 30 ft. or a little over 9 meters for you? Grin


It's a Duple Super Vega, from 1962ish (at least, the ones in the photo below are both from 1962). Duple was later taken over by Plaxton, who built my bus



Jeremy

PS - The later Duple Viceroy has always been my all-time favourite 'classic' bus - really elegant and stylish, in my opinion




(Sorry - drifting this thread away from the subject of Webastos)
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2013, 08:52:28 PM »

Don't be sorry about the thread drift, not the first time it has happened in a topic, and in this case very well worth it.  Looks like the 50s and 60s were great decades for styling on both sides of the pond.   Grin
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« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2013, 07:59:50 AM »

If you are going to be in cold country you best be thinking Webasto, propane isnt going to cut it.
I left my Webasto hooked up as it was from the factory.  Only thing I did was put in 2 thermostats, front and rear.  Granted my bus was a school bus so I have big heaters.  We've been parked at -15 and been fine.

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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2013, 02:52:50 PM »

These comments are mine only and are here simply for info for the original poster. It is not my intention to start a flame war, only to present some other considerations and my experience.

Having been one of the folks that helped get this Board started, I hate the fact that I have to preface a post with that! But that's the reality of todays World.

Propane works fine in cold country if the coach is properly insulated and has thermopane windows. The only problem is it doesn't flow very well at extreme low temps. -20 or below. So the tanks must be topped off more often.

We've used ours at -40 and it works fine. Our old motor home did also but wasn't insulated well so the heater ran constantly.

I can only imagine the condensation from ventless heaters! The normal RV heaters do not cause that. The propane cook stove will. Open a vent or window a bit to solve that.

Popular RV heaters are available in 40,000 btu. They are relatively cheap compared to the Webasto, ProHeat or others.

I have never been to a gathering of busses that at least one wasn't having problems with their Webasto.

They probably work very well for what they were designed for. Trucks and boats. I think they have become pretty standard in trucks now that engines are not allowed to idle overnight by many municipalities. I believe they are not used enough in coachs to keep them operating correctly. Most of them I have had the misfortune of being parked near stink to high heaven.

I know several that use catalytic heaters. I don't trust them and would never use on in a coach. Might as well have a Herman Nelson!

I also think the actions of some affect us all. The cost of RV Parks has nearly become prohibitive. Could it be because some of these rigs that use electric heat, stoves, clothes dryers and such have driven up the costs. I don't think the average host expects the overnighter to use that much electricity. Seasonal parks I have stayed in charge monthly rates plus electric. That seems fairer to all to me.
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Joe Laird
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2013, 03:07:32 PM »

No complaints from me.  Smiley  Operating costs for 40,000 btu of #2 is going to be cheaper than 40,000 btu from propane....yea? I dont have thermopane windows or great insulation.  I need every btu I can get. 

You are 100% on Webasto maintenance!  If you are a maintenance geek like me, you'll be fine but if not, you will regret a Webasto or any fuel oil heater.
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2013, 04:58:29 PM »

After reading most of these postings, I find a few interesting postings.
1- LP Gas useage at -40f,, that is total impossible as I understand due to at -30f you can carry it around in an open bucket as it will not boil off, making for very poor choice of heating fuel, why they make heaters for the fuel tank and convert from liquid to vapor.
2-Electrical power is also used/needed to run a LP furnace assuming it has a fan.
3-IF you have a well equiped coach, dual payne windows, good insulation, any heating system will work well within the temps it is in.  IE, a poorly insulated, single payne glass and open door is more difficult to keep comfy.
4-Having the Aqua Hot/Webasto setup, it is not for folks who take everything for granted, assuming everything runs for ever. IF taken care of, they do a great job and are very dependable (from esperience).
NOTHING is free nor real cheap that is worth having that you depend on.
MHO
Dave M
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Bill B /bus
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2013, 01:34:46 PM »

Since no real Webasto info has come forth other than fuel consumption it is time for a few facts.
Fuel consumption is 0.35GPH at 45,000 BTU output from the DBW2010, which is normally the installed unit.

About ten years ago I unplugged the bus in order to plow snow from around the bus. Seven days later while performing the same chore I found the bus still unplugged. The Webasto was operating when I plugged the cords back in to the outlet. I heard the blower speed increase. Then I ventured inside the bus. Warm at about 50F. Battery by E Meter about 60% charge. Four 8D's in series/parallel for 24V. So not an electrical hog at about 40AH per day. And I was in and out doing minor stuff and packing for a trip south.

Not troublefree but manageable. I have had to replace the drive motor and the shaft bearings once in six years. I suspect the culprit was bearing drag causing the motor failure. A new nozzle maybe every other year.
 
For those of us that live in the cold climates and can't escape until after Christmas it is the system of choice for comfortable interior, engine preheat and low cost on the road heating.

Bill
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