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Author Topic: New 50/30amp service  (Read 2303 times)
TexasBorderDude
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« on: September 02, 2013, 10:25:07 AM »



Ok, so with the good help here, I ran a 2-2-4 alum underground from my main breaker at the meter to my well pump house.  I drove a 3/4 copper clad bar 9 1/2 feet into the earth for a ground and bonded it to the neutral and treated it as a new point of service.   I bought an Eaton 100 amp sub panel to serve a 50 amp and a 30 amp and will the relocate the "temp" well (220-20 amp) pump circuit.

Here are my questions...
1)Since the Eaton 100 amp box is UL approved and comes with the earth ground and neutral circuits bonded.  It is clearly a sub-panel (not a primary service panel) which according to the prior thread indicated it should not have the earth ground bonded to the neutral after the primary service.  Is this panel not according to code?

2)Should I supply my 50 amp RV service with the earth ground (connected to the grounded rod) separated from the neutral at this panel?

Thanks.
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2013, 11:09:33 AM »

First the disclaimer: what follows is my opinion and it bears no relationship to anything except my opinion.  If you want to be sure you are doing it "right" you need to consult your own local electrical code.

Having said all that, if I was driving a new ground rod I would bond the ground and neutral.
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2013, 11:17:46 AM »

The box can be installed in several different applications.  Code compliance is based on if it is installed in compliance to the code that governs the type and location of install.  That bond is removable for cases where it shouldn't be there.

You have neutrals and grounds all mixed up on your bus bars.  One bar is for ground and nothing but ground.  You have your neutral and your ground cable connected both to the right hand bar - not compliant.  You have both bare and white conductors connected to the left hand bar - not compliant.  Your ground cable down to the stake looks to be a 12 or 14 gauge bare wire - must be 6 gauge stranded cable at least.  It must be protected in conduit until it is under ground, it cannot be out in the open.  Your bus bars and breakers must be rated for aluminium and you must install the wires using procedures correct for aluminium.  I've never used and won't use aluminium so I don't know what the special procedures are, I just know there are some.

You need to install the correct ground cable, protected, and tie it to one of the bus bars - I don't think it matters which one, they look the same.  You need to tie all the bare and green conductors to the ground bus bar.  It is then bonded to the other bus bar with that big strap. and you need to tie all the white wires (including the big neutral that is black with a white stripe, it looks like) to the neutral bus bar.  Strictly speaking, your panel should have a separate main disconnect section physically separate from the load section but you might get a pass on that from an inspector.

What amperage are the breakers?  The 30 amp service should be wired with 10 gauge wire including the bare ground conductor, and the 50 amp service should be wired with 6 gauge wire.  I think you have used 12 gauge for both, for sure the 50 amp service is not anything near 6 gauge (6 gauge is always stranded, never solid.

Brian
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 11:19:51 AM by bevans6 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2013, 11:45:09 AM »

I'm afraid you need to re-examine some of the info you received on your previous post.  To do this correctly, you STILL need a grounding conductor back to the main panel and in this sub panel the ground and neutral need to be separated.

There was a post earlier that said a sub panel in a different building can be treated as a service panel.  That is not correct, at least not in the States.  I believe the poster was from Canada and it may be correct there.

The only difference between a sub panel in the same building and a sub panel in a different building is the ADDITION of a ground rod at the sub panel.  That is in addition to the ground from the main panel, not instead of.

Len
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 04:01:40 PM »

Hi, make sure the 30 amp is wired 120 volt.

Would not want to let any smoke out!

Dick
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 04:48:13 PM »

The 100A panel is a subpanel from your main service disconnect and therefore requires a 4 wire service, hot, hot, neutral, ground.  The bonding jumper in the panel needs to be removed from the neutral and ground lug bars and discarded or stored away.  White neutrals go on the neutral bar, green or bare ground wires go on the grounding bar and also keep the case ground attached to the cabinet.  Drive a 8' rod into earth and attach a ground wire to it for lightening protection.  Can't remember the size of that wire without looking at the code.  Some code wonk should chime in for correct size.


Here is a picture that may help.

http://www.mikeholt.com/onlinetraining/page_images/1113844669_2.jpg
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 05:56:45 AM by David Anderson » Logged
niles500
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 05:25:08 PM »

When we "double bond" a sub panel we also run a ground between main and sub. FWIW
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 03:32:36 AM »

You really need to call an inspector or electrician.  NEC definitely allows sub panels in a separate building that has no metallic connection (water, gas, coax) between it and the main building that are separately grounded and bonded.  It's rule 2008 250.32(B)....... (don't forget that NEC calls neutral the "grounded conductor")

2008 250.32(B)
Exception: For existing premises wiring systems only, the
grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or
structure shall be permitted to be connected to the building
or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding
electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding or bonding of
equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded
or bonded where all the requirements of (1), (2), and (3)
are met:
(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the
supply to the building or structure.
(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the
grounding system in each building or structure involved.
(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed
on the supply side of the feeder(s).
Where the grounded conductor is used for grounding in
accordance with the provision of this exception, the size of
the grounded conductor shall not be smaller than the larger
of either of the following:
(1) That required by 220.61
(2) That required by 250.122

To me, Texasborderdude's installation probably meets all of the requirements listed in the rule.  He still wired the box completely wrong, though.

Brian
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 03:56:57 AM by bevans6 » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 04:34:26 AM »

Here were I live they don't require ground fault on 220v equipment inspectors and the NEC dont't always agree it gets confusing in Phoenix they required a ground fault breaker on the walk in freezer only that was a $300.00 breaker and took 2 weeks to order one.  

I built a non conductive building for AT&T in OKC talk about a nightmare for the electrical people, the inspectors and the electrical contractor both scratched their heads on that one NEC guide was out the door

It has nothing to with electrical but plumbing codes are the same way ADA says a urinal is 17 inches to the rim 3 different inspectors 3 different heights from 15 inches to 17 inches some say both urinals have to be the same height 1 inspector  will tell you only 1 after tearing the wall out 3 times both are set at 16 inches  it's quite the ordeal dealing with code interpretations sometimes      
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 04:51:32 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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TexasBorderDude
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« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 06:29:58 AM »

I hope I might separate the physics of electrical service from the protocol of standards of "code" or rules.  Aside from the explanation of "it's wrong, not standard, etc.", can anyone explain, in terms of the physics of electricity, the difference between:
1.  Running a #6 stranded copper wire connected to the ground (earth connection at my primary electric panel which is in turn connected to a #10 bare copper wire buried along the length of the power pole) and running this 170 feet in a buried conduit to the ground bar of my secondary panel, and

2.  A #6 stranded copper wire connected to the 10' buried grounding rod at the secondary panel.

With all respect to greater knowledge than mine, can anyone elucidate me on the possible difference of electrical events between these 2 setups.  I already get it that senario # 2 is not standard, not according to code, and wrong.  It fails the Boy Scout Oath, Pledge of allegiance and is not Kosher because "daddy says so!"  But to quote Hillary  "what difference does it make?"
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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 06:33:45 AM »

What business are you in, professionally, TexasBorderDude?

Brian
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1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
TexasBorderDude
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« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 06:57:02 AM »

Brian,

Sent you a pm

And thanks to all for the input.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 08:56:44 AM by TexasBorderDude » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2013, 06:49:51 AM »

Just a question here but are you going to use the panel for additional circuits ? They have an rv panel that I bought on the internet made in New York all wired with 50/30/20 amp plugs with GFI on the 20 amp water proof for $125. I mounted it on the side of garage and ran 8/4 cable to my 100 amp sub panel. The rv panel saves a lot of time if additional circuit are not needed.
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Steve Canzellarini
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2013, 09:33:10 AM »

Steve, do you have a link for the panel you bought?  I am shopping for one.

Brian
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2013, 09:48:00 AM »

Brian, mine is Cutter-Hammer model CHU1N7N4NS  check the local electrical supply house I paid $119.00 for mine wholesale
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