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Author Topic: starter was turnig real slow and now just clicks  (Read 6085 times)
bevans6
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« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2013, 03:32:12 AM »

Just throwing some thoughts out, random order...

There are two grounds for the starter motor - the big cable for the motor, and the solenoid has a separate small gauge wire to ground from one of it's terminals.  Both are independent, both have to be good.

Grab a normal battery booster cable, clip one end to the positive battery post in the engine compartment, and tap the other end on the positive terminal of the solenoid.  Easy, safe, low current so no real sparks, and it will finally answer the question of is the solenoid/motor OK or not.  This should have been done in the first 20 minutes of working on this thing, but that's water under the bridge. 

The starter relay is the same as the reverse solenoid relay in the rear junction box, so you could swap it in as a test, if you have a standard transmission.  You could also probably substitute a normal Ford style starter solenoid for it.

Brian
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« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2013, 05:47:07 AM »

Go to AutoZone or any parts house they will have a remote button, check if you have 24v on the solenoid connect one lead from the remote button to the hot battery cable on the solenoid connect the other lead to the small start terminal on the solenoid not knowing which solenoid you have it could be on the bottom or up higher on the side of the solenoid with connections made push the button if the starter or solenoid is not bad it will start  

A safe easy way to do it and keeps you out of harms way kinda like John 316 is describing who has had his share of starter problems over the years  ::)Back to your 1st post I would say it is stater time
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 05:58:18 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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zubzub
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« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2013, 07:02:00 AM »

Just throwing some thoughts out, random order...


Grab a normal battery booster cable, clip one end to the positive battery post in the engine compartment, and tap the other end on the positive terminal of the solenoid.  Easy, safe, low current so no real sparks, and it will finally answer the question of is the solenoid/motor OK or not.  This should have been done in the first 20 minutes of working on this thing, but that's water under the bridge. 



Brian
 
I saw the title of this thread and did not bother reading any of it as I guessed that at the end there would be some simple advice to trouble shoot the starter and solenoid. And there was.  Over the years on various forums that care for older vehicles the same issue comes up again and again, starters are pretty simple beasts, bypassing everything (including the solenoid if possible) is a good place to start, as at least then you know if the main concern is your main concern.  Many years ago, before the internet I used to go to the library for this info and study wiring diagrams in shop manuals etc  to see how the circuits work, a basic understanding of simple circuits etc allows for much faster diagnosis.
Often on forums the suggestion get quite complex, sometimes because the posters assume that the OP has already covered the basics, as always KIS. 
Great post Brian.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2013, 07:16:22 AM »

Old starters are simple they work or they don't sometimes a starter will spin but under a load it won't it is a 10 hp+ electric motor simple, main power supply,ground,a auxiliary power supply to engage the solenoid to complete the circuit sorta like turning a light switch off/on
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 07:23:43 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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bevans6
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« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2013, 07:20:46 AM »

The battery booster cable idea is the low rent version of Cliffords recommendation to get a remote starter switch from an Autozone.  The remote starter switch is far and away the better idea, but I had a Chevy Vega once that I started for two months with a screwdriver to bridge the terminals on the starter, I was 17 and a screwdriver was cheaper than fixing the thing.  Plus it was a Vega, so it was hard to do something to it that it didn't deserve...   Grin

Brian
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« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2013, 07:29:46 AM »

I've been plagued by starters and poor charging for my entire life.  I remember an old Suzuki 650 bike that refused to charge properly even after changing stators and V reg repeatedly....In the end I would just push start it every time, my cars have always been manuals for the same reason....Buses are a different beast, even though mine is manual I would not like to push start.....but I would if I really had to....somehow.
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« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2013, 07:45:56 AM »

Brian , I have a permanent wedding band on my hand from a screw driver trying to start a bus I shorted the wedding band out and it melted on my finger that is why I like the button now days lol
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« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2013, 08:37:38 AM »

OK I agree...we keep it simple and troubleshoot 1 thing at a time.

I can test the starter the way Brian says.
I couldn't find it labeled in the manual but believe the terminal on the back of the starter is the ground and the one on the side right between the large solenoid terminals is the positive.

I will get a 30 foot jumper to get the positive from the battery bay (the 24v positive) and connect it directly to the positive on the starter motor.

Do I understand right that I am expecting and hoping to hear it spin freely since the solenoid isn't holding the pinion into the flywheel mesh.
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Chopper Scott
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« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2013, 08:51:06 AM »

Correct
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« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2013, 08:58:53 AM »

You don't need a jumper cable from the battery if you are getting 24v on the battery side of the solenoid jump from it 
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« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2013, 09:02:08 AM »

OK.  I can jump from the positive (in) terminal on the solenoid to the positive on the starter motor.  A lot less cable.
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« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2013, 09:15:21 AM »

Don't need a long jumper cable.  There are two large lugs on the solenoid. One should have 24v on it.  If not repair the connections from the battery.  Connect them to test the starter only without engaging the solenoid.  If it turns connect the battery lead to the small lug that comes from the relay.  The other small lug should be ground.  The solenoid should engage and the starter turn.  If not tell us what did or did not happen.

To do this safely connect the positive lead of the jumpers to one large lug and the negative lead to the other. Then stand clear and connect the other two clamps to act as the switch. Best to connect the clamps at the starter with the batteries off to avoid unwanted surprises.

Good luck
Don
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dave
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« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2013, 09:42:10 AM »

Thanks Don I got it
So I did the following
Main power on
Master switch on
Placed jumper (red) on positive terminal (on side) of the starter motor (not solenoid)
Placed opposite side of same jumper cable (red) on positive (in) on solenoid
There were small sparks
No sound coming from starter motor

Thoughts?

Also I did test voltage at the starter motor terminals and there was ~24 volts when my wife was pushing the switch (that was yesterday).  I do not have an ammeter.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2013, 09:57:48 AM »

You should have 24v at the battery terminal on the solenoid with out pushing the button with only the master switch on ,do you have 24 v there ? there is no relay ,override or interlock switch that can kill that cable only the master switch so check for 24 volt on that terminal
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 10:04:52 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2013, 10:33:40 AM »

When I check voltage it all seems good.  Here is what I have in each scenario

Start switch off
Solenoid large positive terminal (the one on the outside) 24v
Solenoid large positive terminal (the one near the engine) 0v
Starter positive 0v

Switch on
24v at all the terminals above

I have not tested the voltage on the solenoid though

If I understand right the starter motor should turn when I put the jumper on it.  It didn't. 

I am surprised that both the solenoid and starter are not working.
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