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Author Topic: Super single driver wheels  (Read 2739 times)
CrabbyMilton
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« on: October 28, 2013, 09:36:27 AM »

Hello. I just go back from a 6 day motorcoach trip from Milwaukee thru Maryland and W. Virginia and back. I had a nice time even though the weather was not always the greatest. Our bus was a 2013 PREVOST H3-45 with only about 34k on the odometer. That VOLVO engine had no problem going over the often steep grades. It was also nice to have an ALLISON transmission this time so no slow jerky acceleration that comes from an automated manual. The bus also had the super single wheels. The driver wasn't sure but my question is can this bus be switched back to duals? He thought that the axle may or may not be set up for anything other than what is there.
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HB of CJ
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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2013, 01:15:50 PM »

I believe this to be true...some help here please.  Think the super single rear axles are several inches wider to mate up with the single very wide wheels.  I think a conventional rear axle MAY be convertable to super singles, but not the other way around. 

I was going to consider super single drivers on the cancelled Crown Supercoach conversion plans, but found that any conversion kit placed stress on the rear axles, bearings and drums.  Possibly you are stuck with what you have...super singles.  HB of CJ (old coot)
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luvrbus
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 02:22:33 PM »

Super singles are hub pilot there is no difference in the axle on Prevost with hub center wheels that I know of they run a combination of tires like the 365's on the tag and front with the super single or dual 315's on the drive

 Prevost wants  the 365's on the front and tag when running the super single package some trucks are having wheel bearing problems on the drive axle running the super single my buddy at Volvo in Phoenix told me he is not much on the super single except on trailers
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 02:24:11 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2013, 09:17:57 AM »

The original idea behind super singles was to be able to switch between singles and duals without modification. Many truck manufacturers found that running the 2" outset super single wheels put too much stress on the outer wheel bearings causing premature bearing failure. To combat this, the axle manufacturers came out with dual trac axles that will put the super singles at 96" wide with 0 offset wheels, but at 102" wide with tandems.
My guess is the bus has 2" outset wheels which means you can just switch to normal dual tires. Super Singles have been proven to have a reduced flat rate down 15% compared to duals since super singles are 20ply and duals are 14ply (typically). Personally-If I were running a big rig with my own trailer, I'd run super singles and carry a mounted spare. On my bus-always duals. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2013, 09:27:50 AM »

I was going to consider super single drivers on the cancelled Crown Supercoach conversion plans, but found that any conversion kit placed stress on the rear axles, bearings and drums. 

HB -

While you were considering super singles for your Crown, somebody went ahead and did it!
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RJ Long
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2013, 10:04:31 AM »

Interesting - for the first time ever I saw a semi tractor with super singles on the drive axles, on my drive to Ontario last week.  I only saw them on trailers before.  Today I saw a trailer with super singles with a flat, getting a new tire installed on the side of the road.  Tire truck had two tires in the back, about took up the whole bed and hung out the sides...    Grin

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« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 11:07:19 AM by bevans6 » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2013, 10:07:50 AM »

According to Robert Hitt of Prevost if you order a coach with super singles you cannot change back to duals unless you also change the rear end. The rear ends are a different width.
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Jon

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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2013, 11:53:49 AM »

While super singles are rare in the US, and rarer in Canada, they are ubiquitous on trucks and buses in Europe, at least in France 5 years ago when I was there last. Is it simply a North American resistance to change, or is there more to it that that?

JC
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JC
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2013, 12:07:25 PM »

Super singles......snow....hmmmm...
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2013, 12:43:21 PM »

 The new stuff must use the rear axle made for the super singles TomC was talking about, I had a H-41 that had super singles on the rear and 365's on the tag and front axles it wasn't a problem to change back to 315's  


 RJ fwiw the tires on the Crown look to be 415/50 x 22.5 not a super single several Eagles running around with the 415/50 setup  

Prevost install those on our 97 trying to keep the new IFS suspension under the thing it didn't work lol I call those concrete truck tires they ride and drive like crap  
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 08:38:06 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 12:56:08 PM »

While super singles are rare in the US, and rarer in Canada, they are ubiquitous on trucks and buses in Europe, at least in France 5 years ago when I was there last. Is it simply a North American resistance to change, or is there more to it that that?

JC

This is only a guess but it may be because super singles are required for rear wheel steering to work, which most (or at least very many) buses and truck trailers here have. And of course fuel economy has been much more of a concern for much longer too.

Besides, single rear wheels just look so much better


Jeremy
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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 01:20:56 PM »

They do look good but I can tell you first handed they are not good on a frame less 51 ft dump trailer I lost a brand new Mate aluminum trailer the first trip out when the front axle cleared the ground dumping over it came

 I don't think Mate ever tried the super single again on their trailers   
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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2013, 03:27:13 PM »

Or...everything has already been done before and everything will be done over again.  Thank you!  I also like the way that Crown Supercoach owner offset the roof A/C units to increase that low 75" of head room.  Last I was told, there is/was some auto glass outfit in central CA that makes/sales curved Crown Supercoach replacement windshields.  Too bad I threw all that contact info away.  DARN!!  I hate getting old!  HB of CJ (old coot) Smiley Smiley Smiley  Crowns Forever!! (haven't keyboarded that in quite awhile either!) Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Larry B
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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2013, 05:59:30 PM »

This really has nothing to do with super singles but when I look at the picture of the bus wilh those ac units on the curve of the roof, will they work effectively on that much of an angle? It has been a couple of years since I installed my ac units. It seems to me they had to be within 5 degress of level, (both ways). Has my memory failed me again?
        Larry B
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2013, 06:42:09 PM »

This really has nothing to do with super singles but when I look at the picture of the bus wilh those ac units on the curve of the roof, will they work effectively on that much of an angle? It has been a couple of years since I installed my ac units. It seems to me they had to be within 5 degress of level, (both ways). Has my memory failed me again?
        Larry B

When I put mine in three years ago the book said 15 degrees either direction was acceptable.

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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2013, 09:43:13 PM »

RJ, fwiw, the tires on the Crown look to be 455/55 x 22.5, not a super single.  Several Eagles running around with the 455/55 setup.

Clifford -

I didn't have time to get out and look closely, but here's another pic of the rear tires:
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RJ Long
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2013, 05:39:32 AM »

RJ,the wheels on it are a drop center I have always been told you cannot use a drop center wheel with super single
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2013, 08:11:10 AM »

I would like to know what size tires are on that crown. I think they are a wide base tire maybe 385/65r22.5 or 425/65r22.5 ( 14.9 or 16.6 wide) A true super single should not be mounted on that rim. Super singles (455/55r22.5 or 445/50r22.5 ) are some where around 17.5 inches wide and they don't look that wide.

Wayne
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Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2013, 08:37:15 AM »

...   Today I saw a trailer with super singles with a flat, getting a new tire installed on the side of the road.  ...

     First time I saw a super single, I was going to the VW parts place (a major trauma in itself) and had to park down the street because a t-trailer making a delivery had a flat on a s-s and was broken down blocking the whole parking lot.  Not a good way to get a positive impression the first time!  (I need 'em on MY bus like your gramma needs track spikes ...)
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2013, 08:41:44 AM »

I saw the new super singles at a trade show that were 21 inches wide problem is no one makes a wheel for it right now 

Those on the Crown don't look like a super single to me
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 08:47:50 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2013, 03:24:06 PM »

Wayne & Clifford -

I went back to the original, full-size pic on my computer and enlarged it, trying to decipher what size tire was on that Crown.

No luck. . .  Angry

I wish now I'd taken a few extra minutes to get close-ups and the sizing - sorry, guys.

Maybe someone who has the connections can contact the owner thru the license plates?  (I can read it on the original pic.)

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2013, 04:47:19 PM »

Those are not super singles. They are construction singles that have a 65mph top speed rating as compared to the super singles 75mph rating. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2013, 07:13:44 PM »

Does/did anyone make higher speed rated heavy truck tires?  Like in a 11RX24.5 with a very high speed rating?  Curious minds wonder.  My old Crown Supercoach would top out at around 85mph at 2150rpm in 10th gear.  Some of our older American Lafrance fire apparatus would easily do 80+.  Old old Engine 2 comes to mind. (1975)  A long time ago.  Some of the newer stuff will go over 90+.  HB of CJ (old coot)
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2013, 08:09:39 AM »

If someone driving one of our buses or any large vehicle for that matter goes the speeds you suggest, I'm thinking tire speed ratings will mean little or nothing to them.

At those speeds a maximum braking effort will result in a stopping distance likely well in excess of 500 feet. Hell, my Corvette Z06 is capable of 195 MPH speeds and it actually has tires rated for those speeds. I have managed in the 6 years I owned it to get it up to 85. I'm not worried about my equipment, it is the idiots on the highway that are out to get me. In a bus we are far more likely to have the inability to stop be the issue than the speed rating of tires.
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Jon

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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2013, 04:52:46 PM »

The highest rated speed for on road truck/bus tires is 75mph. If you go over-run 10psi higher and expect lower tread life. Personally-I firmly believe all trucks and buses should have a built in, non changeable governor at 65mph. 75mph or faster is just plainly a 10-25ton missile going down the road that can't stop worth a bean. Disc brakes are a bit better, but still too fast. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2013, 04:59:49 PM »

You need to be aware that the wheel bearings / hubs are designed for the load to be on the large inner bearing, the smaller outter bearing is only to hold the assy on the large bearing. Correct when they offset the wheel assy out, your sure gonna have bearing issues, no surprise there.
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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2013, 03:59:09 AM »

Don't all DOT rated tires have at least the 18% safety factor for speed and load meaning a tire can run or carry a load for short periods of time @ 18 % over the stamped rating on the sidewall I know Toyo uses 20 %
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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2013, 05:01:39 AM »

Clifford..........really?HuhHuh?

It sounds as though you are saying it is OK to exceed rated speeds by 18% because that is the built in margin. So at 88.5 MPH nothing bad will happen, but if you go to 18.5% or 88.875 MPH the tire disintegrates? Are you suggesting manufacturing tolerances are so well controlled any speed up to 18% higher than the rating is OK because the manufacturers derate the tires just to be consistent with one another?

People hang on your advice here. To have you even suggest all limits such as tire speed ratings are advisory only encourages those who think buses are OK at high speeds can be dangerous. I agree with Tom C. Completely.
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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2013, 06:30:44 AM »

No,no Jon I was not suggesting that I was just asking if all DOT tires had the safety factor built in just in case it was ever needed 

Tom said 75 mph was max for truck and bus tires and I was just wondering if the truckers and bus operators use that margin when running 85 mph across Texas or could it just be stupidity on their part 

 I have been driving 75 mph in Texas and have had the Prevost entertainer buses and trucks blow by me,I am just curios where he got the 75 mph from.

 All tires use a letter for the speed rating and I have saw truck tires with a Q rating that's too damn fast for me in vehicle that is 40,000 lbs +     
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« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2013, 12:44:08 PM »

I understand now.

Regarding those who are not content with the limitations they are test pilots.

I may be the slowest XLII driver, but whenever we travel at our 62 MPH speed we are passed by others as if our engine had quit. But ironically those drivers that have gone by us at high rates of speed usually go by us multiple times during the day. Maybe they are hurrying to the next bathroom.
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Jon

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« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2013, 09:57:27 PM »

Commercial tires use a mph rating, not a letter rating like passenger tires. I haven't seen a tire faster then 75mph. On trucks with super singles, they are using wider based axles so to be able to run 0 offset wheels to keep the bearings happy. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2013, 02:46:14 AM »

I don't know Tom I just saw a new bus Laughlin bought with Yokohama tires that had a Q rating I don't quite follow you about no letter all tires have a speed rating in letters my tractor tires have a speed rating of A2

The M rating is a 81 mph truck and bus tire those have been around for a long time, it makes no difference 65 to 70 mph is plenty fast for a bus but I have drove 80mph across Texas and was in the slow lane everything but the Amish passed me  
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 04:56:51 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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