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Author Topic: I took the plunge.... Now I have questions  (Read 2055 times)
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« on: November 03, 2013, 09:16:56 AM »

So after spending way to much time here  I went out and picked up a 1992 MCI 102C3. It was run by a charter company and my retired "   'hound  " maintenance father gave it his blessing so....  Now its my project. 

(somehow I blame all of you for this affliction)

Anyway  I was looking at the cruising speed thread and was surprised at how fast you guys were talking about.

My 102 has a Cummins L-10 (it was re-engined about 190,000 ago) and a 740

With my foot on the floor 63 is all she's got and it will roll up to 65 down hill.  Tach shows 2800 RPM however I'm not sure I really believe it. Tach says idle is 800 and fast idle is 1200 which seems a bit high.

The Cummins manual says 2300 is the RPM at the top end.    I'm pretty sure the speedo is right judging from traffic and my dad pacing the bus as we drove it home.

Thoughts and of course here'e the mandatory pic after we took off all of the company logos (those 3M Strip Off wheels work wonders)

Larry
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Larry
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2013, 09:29:13 AM »

Sure sounds like a poor rear ratio, maybe it had an overdrive 6 speed Allison, not the 740 series.  The L10 has a good rep. in trucks.
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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2013, 09:52:04 AM »

My bus also came straight out of service with an operator and was (and still is) fitted with a speed limiter - perhaps yours is too?

Jeremy

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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2013, 11:19:24 AM »

   Welcome to the forum. First verify the accuracy of the tach. Someone with a handheld unit should be able to check it. Check with a hd truck repair place. Use a gps to verify speedo accuracy. Then we can go from there for what your options are. We'll need your tire size btw.You are sure it has a 740?
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2013, 12:55:11 PM »

I'm not 100% sure it has a 740,  I know its an Allison. I took a quick look at the trans electronic box. It's located in roof of bay 3 drivers side behind a door to the system tunnel. Can you identify the transmission by the electronics box?

I'm really certain the Speedo is right on. matches my car spot on.

I can tell that the bus came from the factory with a Manual and a clutch.  I can see the steel plates they put on the floor to cover the holes and I can see the remaining clutch linkages when you open the service compartment on the drivers side. Plus the shift pattern plates is still next to the drivers seat

Thanks Guys

Larry

« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 12:56:51 PM by Aviator » Logged

Larry
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2013, 01:40:16 PM »

   Here is info from one of their manuals. maybe that can be some help.  I don't know what you can see on an MCI without having to block it securely to get under it.http://igor.chudov.com/manuals/M939-Series-Trucks/Allison-MT-654CR-Transmission/Allison-AT-MT-HT-Transmission-Operators-Manual.pdf

   Otherwise that rpm/speed works out to approx 5:50 ratio rearend......sounds like trans is not running in high or 4th. Maybe only going to third gear?

« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 01:57:52 PM by chessie4905 » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2013, 02:35:18 PM »

OK first off a 740 is not going to have a "trans electronic box"

So that means you have a.........

Could be a 748 or who knows.

Since it's been converted to an auto from a manual all bets are off.

Best thing for you to do is contact the company you bought it from and speak to the "shop foreman" an ask him what he can tell you about it.

Where are you located? What company used to own the bus?
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2013, 06:13:12 PM »

BK
I'm in Northern Indiana.

The bus came from Star of Indiana (they're owned by Free Enterprise) and was based in Indianapolis. They bought the bus 5 years ago and it has been changed before they got it.

Well about the electronic box.  I'm not near the bus, but the electronic box I found says Allison on it so I assumed it for the trans. I'll shoot a picture

The shift selector has buttons for R N D  and if i remember right 1 2 3     There are no arrow push buttons and no LED  I do not have a transmission Check light (at least nothing on the dash or the pad that i have seen and no other buttons that seem to be related to the trans. My dad is at a loss here because the Hounds we never converted to Auto if the came with a manual, Greyhound stopped buying manuals as soon as they could and sold the manual fleet when it timed out and that was back in the MC-7 days

When I drive the coach, It starts moving easily in first and it runs to 25 on the tach and shifts but the tach only drops to 20 and then it feels like another shift (but that could be lockup) at 25 on the tach, another shift (approx 30 ish-MPH  then back to 25 on the tach and another shift (40-ish Mph) then it just winds on out to 62 with my foot on the floor. There maybe another lockup in third, I haven't driven it in a week.

I know the Cummins L-10 is a mechanical engine. No electronics to be found

So  Any thoughts on how I figure out what transmission is in this ?  The guys at Star thought is was a 740 but they could have been mistaken.

Larry


« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 06:25:34 PM by Aviator » Logged

Larry
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2013, 06:26:41 PM »

Found this online   This is what my shift pad looks like

Larry
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Larry
MCI 102C3
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2013, 06:50:44 PM »

   Try to get the info off the plate on the case just above where the pan attaches to the case on the right? side. It should have the model and serial number. Hopefully it is still attached. The serial number can be given to any Allison Trans dealer to determine the model number if it is not on the tag also.
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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2013, 06:18:16 AM »

Trans could also be a 741 which is the electronic version of the 740. It does have a allison box(ATEC). Hope that helps. Does sound like it is not shifting into 4th gear. Should happen at about 55 mph
JimH
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2013, 06:58:29 AM »

You have a shift pad or shifter tower is the engine is electronic or manual there were a lot of the L-10 E that had the B400 behind it you could have a 741,746,747 ,748 or the B series if a electronic transmission 

On the drivers side above the transmission oil  pan about the middle of the transmission is a tag that will tell you what transmission is there keep your fingers crossed it doesn't say 741  Roll Eyes

good lucky
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2013, 10:00:15 AM »

Quote from: busguy01
Trans could also be a 741 which is the electronic version of the 740. It does have a allison box(ATEC). Hope that helps. Does sound like it is not shifting into 4th gear. Should happen at about 55 mph
JimH

Quote from: luvrbus
You have a shift pad or shifter tower is the engine is electronic or manual there were a lot of the L-10 E that had the B400 behind it you could have a 741,746,747 ,748 or the B series if a electronic transmission 

On the drivers side above the transmission oil  pan about the middle of the transmission is a tag that will tell you what transmission is there keep your fingers crossed it doesn't say 741  Roll Eyes

good lucky

OK there ya go Jim, Clifford & chessie4905 have told you pretty much what ya need to know.

Yes the "Allison box you found will be for the trans.
Now ya just have to figure out which Allison.

An yes I'm familiar with "Sodrel's" Free Enterprise & Star of America (and trucking co) operations.
Even if it was converted before they bought it, they should know what transmission it has. (they did service it didn't they? hard to buy the right filters, & parts without knowing what it is!)

BTW the Hound did still have some manual transmissions up into the mid '80's.
I know this because my uncle used to own a '84 "9" and a '85 "102A3" that both had been hounds and still had 4 spds in them. 
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2013, 10:41:21 AM »

That is a generation 1 shift pad it should have a do not shift light next to the N on the pad it's not for the world transmission so you probably have the 700 series
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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2013, 01:27:54 PM »

Thanks gentlemen!

As soon as I get back in town I'll get dirty and find the data plate

Thanks

Larry


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Larry
MCI 102C3
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« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2013, 08:48:07 AM »

Hi All

So Here's what I know and don't know

I Ran the bus up on blocks and blocked it up, and three of us looked for the data plate. We all agree, we see where it should be but there's nothing there

I reached out to the company I bought it from and they are pulling records to see if they have any notes on what trans is in it.  When I bought it, the gave me all the maintenance records from the day they bought it but no mention of what transmission it is.

As an aside, Its hilarious to read the mechanics comments about the drivers.  Its a comedy show waiting to happen

Back to the bus   Here's what I get from at road test  . I haven't gotten the bus out to my hangar yet to verify the tach so these are the numbers that come up on the tach but nit verified yet.

Idle 800 RPM

Selector in D  From a standing start
Shift at 10 MPH 2500 to 1500 RPM   Short Shift (lockup) at 8 MPH 2500 RPM to 2000 RPM
Shift at 20 MPH 2500 to 1500 RPM   Short Shift (lockup) at 16 MPH 2500 to 2000 RPM
Shift at 31 MPH 2500 to 1500 RPM
Shift at 41 MPH 2500 to 1500 RPM  This shift is kinda hard
Bus winds out to 63 MPH at 2750 RPM

If I put the selector in 1
Short Shift (lockup) at 8 MPH 2500 RPM to 2000 RPM  Bust tops out at 13 MPH 2700 RPM

If I put the selector in 2
Shift at 10 MPH 2500 to 1500 RPM   Short Shift (lockup) at 8 MPH 2500 RPM to 2000 RPM
Short Shift (lockup) at 16 MPH 2500 to 2000 RPM Bus tops out at 23 MPH at 2700 RPM

If I put the selector in 3
Shift at 10 MPH 2500 to 1500 RPM   Short Shift (lockup) at 8 MPH 2500 RPM to 2000 RPM
Shift at 20 MPH 2500 to 1500 RPM   Short Shift (lockup) at 16 MPH 2500 to 2000 RPM
Bus tops out at 35 MPH at 2700 RPM

Below is a picture of the ATEC Box located in Bay 3 Drivers side

Does any of this ring a bell with anyone or should I just head off to an Allison shop and have them figgure out whats in the beast?

Larry


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Larry
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« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2013, 08:51:08 AM »

One more thing,  I googled all of the numbers on the ATEC box and came up with squat

Larry
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Larry
MCI 102C3
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« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2013, 09:02:52 AM »

You have 700 series sounds like unless someone has locked out 5 and 6th on a World Transmission and using the generation 1 pad even at that the World is 1:1 in 4th
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 09:06:27 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2013, 04:22:45 PM »

   You could jack one set of duals off the ground just enough to rotate. Put a mark on bottom of sidewall. Trans in nuetral, engine off, brakes off, other wheels blocked. Get under to the driveshaft and put a mark on it. (SAFELY) Have someone rotate dual assy slowly exactly 2 turns, while you are counting turns of driveshaft. Repeat for verification. You'll have to estimate the final part of a turn. Then we'll all know what axle ratio you have
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« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2013, 07:58:13 PM »

Chessie

I'm hoping to avoid having to go that route, I'm hoping the maintenance department at the previous owner can shed some light on the situation

Its been said up thread and my dad agrees that it seems like its not doing something correctly after its shifts to third and fourth. Is there supposed to be a lockup in third and / or 4th?

I managed to troubleshoot the tach  (I'll start a new thread for that) and now it reading correctly for the engine.

So with the fixed tach here's what its really doing and shifting at

Idle 725 RPM  Fast Idle is 975 RPM

Selector in D  From a standing start
Shift at 13-15 MPH 2300 to 1500 RPM   Short Shift (lockup) at 9-10 MPH 2300 RPM to 1900 RPM
Shift at 22 MPH 2300 to 1600 RPM   Short Shift (lockup) at 16-18 MPH 2300 to 2000 RPM
Shift at 33 MPH 2300 to 1500 RPM   The shift is on the hard side
Shift at 43 MPH 2300 to 1500 RPM  This shift is also kinda hard
Bus winds out to 63 MPH at 2300 RPM

If I put the selector in 1
Short Shift (lockup) at 10 MPH 2300 RPM to 1900 RPM  Bust tops out at 15 MPH 2300 RPM

If I put the selector in 2
Shift at 14 MPH 2300 to 1500 RPM   Short Shift (lockup) at 9-10 MPH 2300 RPM to 1900 RPM
Short Shift (lockup) at 16 MPH 2300 to 2000 RPM Bus tops out at 23 MPH at 2300 RPM

If I put the selector in 3
Shift at 14 MPH 2300 to 1500 RPM   Short Shift (lockup) at 9-10 MPH 2300 RPM to 1900 RPM
Shift at 20 MPH 2500 to 1500 RPM   Short Shift (lockup) at 16 MPH 2300 to 1900 RPM
Bus tops out at 36 MPH at 2300 RPM

55 MPH looks like 2000 RPM on the tach

Thoughts?

Larry






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« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2013, 08:25:12 PM »

   I would make sure trans fluid isn't low when hot. Also give the computer numbers to an Allison servicing dealer. They will be able to help. Regardless, it would be good to know final drive ratio. Who knows... maybe it has 5:20 or 4:88 rear.
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« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2013, 08:52:12 AM »

With an HT740 or 748 at 2250 rpm 22.5 tires your maximum speed in high gear will be approx. 63 MPH with 4.10 gears.

Cheers Gerry
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« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2013, 09:16:46 AM »

Larry -

I am with Gerry and Chessie on this one.  I don't think there is anything wrong, I'd assume that the gear ratio is what is keeping you from hitting speeds higher than 63.

-Sean
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« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2013, 09:47:51 AM »

A 410 is a good gear for the L-10 Cummins
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« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2013, 02:22:16 PM »

4.10 with 12:00x22.5 at 2250 with direct high gear should be 68 or 69 mph.
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« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2013, 03:03:14 PM »

He saying 2500 rpm
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« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2013, 10:17:56 PM »

Luvrbus

After chasing bad grounds  I'm now getting 2300 on the tach and that matches with the engine revs stated in the Cummins manual

I think you and Gerry and Chessie have hit on it, its a 4:10 Rear end and that 63 mph is just it

The bus originally had a 5 speed manual when it was built (it still has the old shift pattern plate)

I'll check the tires on Monday but I'm pretty sure they're 12x22.5

Larry



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MCI 102C3
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