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Author Topic: Switching from Manual to Automatic?  (Read 2459 times)
Bryan
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« on: March 02, 2014, 10:11:56 PM »

Hey guys, I'm really just curious to know from some of you experts. What is involved in switching a manual to an automatic transmission? Is it even possible in a 4107? Do I have to purchase a used transmission? Or can I buy one new? What type of costs would be involved... parts and labor? Thanks!  Smiley
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Bryan Edmonds
PD4107-756
Toccoa, GA
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2014, 04:31:50 AM »



Bryan 

I think you need to call Gene Russell   at Russell diesel   in Mill Spring NC.   just east of ashville.

He would be the person to talk about that change that is close to you.

A trip up is a day well spent just talking to Gene.

uncle ned
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4104's forever
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2014, 05:45:53 AM »

It is going to be a lot cheaper on you to buy a 6v92TA from a V drive transit bus with the transmission than try and piece together a system IMO you will have more power and less smoke and the cooling requirements are not much different between the 350hp 6v92TA and the 270 hp 8v71
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 05:51:13 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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Runcutter
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2014, 05:58:34 AM »

Bryan, check your PM's for one from me.

Arthur
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Arthur Gaudet    Carrollton (Dallas area) Texas 
1968 PD-4107

Working in the bus industry provides us a great opportunity - to be of service to others
Bryan
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2014, 08:09:20 PM »

Thanks guys! I'm actually only 2 hours from MillSprings so I could run up there and talk with Gene. Do you have any ballpark idea of the costs I'm looking at for a swap?
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Bryan Edmonds
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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2014, 07:03:40 AM »

Bryan, I'm putting a packet of information in the US mail today.  It's an article that JLV sent me when I was planning to do this to our 4107, and a list of parts that I'd purchased for the project from Luke Bonagura.

I understand that automatics were an option from GM in the later production of the 4905/4108, and that the options were a VS-2, or a V-730.  I don't know, but suspect a V-731 would also work (I don't recall the difference between a 730 and a 731.  With a sideways engine, V-drives are the only option without major surgery -- but some have installed new in-line powerplants, extending and modifying the rear of the coach for the necessary added length. 

There have been a lot of discussion on this board about the relative MPG between stick and automatic.  If I can summarize what I recall from them, think of a loss of maybe 2 MPG with an auto.

Arthur
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Arthur Gaudet    Carrollton (Dallas area) Texas 
1968 PD-4107

Working in the bus industry provides us a great opportunity - to be of service to others
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2014, 07:08:33 AM »

The 731 is electronic ATEC transmission  Roll Eyes cooling is the major problem with both the 730 and 731 doing the switch in the GM, very doable with the right parts
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 07:12:11 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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TomC
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2014, 07:47:56 AM »

I have a transit bus-that were designed for stop and go-mainly cooling down at each stop. I had my radiator increased in size to the maximum. But since I also increased my heat load with going from 65 to 75 injectors with air to air intercooling, I still have heating problems on long pulls on over 90 degree days. Hence, I have 15 misters with 2 drilled out with 1/16" drill (really puts out the water).
I also have taken the stock oil to water trans cooler and added an auxiliary air to air cooler with thermostatically controlled fan. The trans fluid comes out of the trans and goes through the air to air first to take much of the heat out before going through the oil to water shell cooler-hence taking more heat away from the radiator. All has worked well now for 5yrs. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2014, 12:58:10 PM »

 I put a 730 in my 4106, big mistake in my opinion, top speed was reduced 5-to 10 mpg, engine ran hotter, and fuel mpg reduced at least by 3, the cost was 4000.00. would never do this again and would not have done it had I known all the facts before hand. 4106 speed reduction to 76 mph, had the high speed rear end before installation, part of the bulkhead had to be cut away,if you can live with these things go for it , the plus side is it is much easyer to drive, on a long climb attn. to temp is a must, with standard 10+ mpg as opposed to 7, stand top speed not known but was still climbing at 80 when I got out of the throttle. after V-730 76 top speed. 4107 if im not mistaken has the slower rear end making these problems even worse. another thing is I never had a problem with the v-730, it did a good job, had it rebuilt before installion
Frank
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Gwaltnak
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2014, 05:15:32 PM »

What is the max power you can put through a v-730 / V-731?
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uncle ned
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2014, 06:10:26 PM »



I have 2 4104's

 1 with the 6-71 and 4 speed.
 1 with a 6v92 and v730

Guess which one i drive all the time.

If you are worried about the reduction in final drive use the tallest tire you can find.
I run 11r 24.5 hancooks.  Have no trouble running down the road with the trucks.
If I feel like it and want to use the fuel I can run in the fast lane and pass all of them.
listen to RJ the bus guru about gearing and tires.
If I want decent fuel milage i run the blue roads and keep the rpm's at about 1100
and get decent milage.
have no trouble keeping it there on most hills.

I have been in parks withe the 4 speed and have a hard time just getting out of some of them and this is in the eastern mountains.

With the v730 all of the worries about starting on hills and burning clutches are gone.

so I do have some heating problems but i also have big injectors and plenty of power.

love the combination.

uncle ned
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RJ
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2014, 06:57:23 PM »

Listen to RJ the bus guru about gearing and tires.

Thank you, Ned, for those kind words.  They are appreciated!   Smiley

RJ
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RJ Long
PD4106-2784 No More
S13406 Now
Fresno CA
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2014, 07:39:53 PM »

I have heard of this document several times... Throne that has all the parts and stuff, who has copies of this? And would you be willing to share it again?
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TomC
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2014, 10:42:16 PM »

A V730 is a HT740 (the most rugged trans ever made-it is the basis for the M1A1's transmission) without 1st gear. My engine puts out 375hp and 1125lb/ft torque and it shifts fine. Course, I don't have to drive with my foot on the floor very often either. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2014, 05:26:16 AM »

The RTS used the V730 behind the 350 hp 6v92 it never gave any problems
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lostagain
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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2014, 06:38:27 AM »

It would probably be cheaper to buy a bus with an automatic. Unless you are looking for a project and enjoy the wrenching...

JC
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JC
Invermere, BC
1977 MC5C, 6V92/HT740
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2014, 06:43:13 AM »

I can understand him wanting to rid himself of the oil clutch  Undecided
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TomC
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2014, 07:42:10 AM »

Big rig trucks are the last vehicles that are still using manual transmissions. Most of the very large companies (like J.B.Hunt, Werner, U.S.Xpess [since 2002], Swift, Schnider, etc) have switched to automated manuals. The new Mercedes-Benz based DT12 for Freightliners, is the most civilized automated transmission I've driven. It has Ecoast which the transmission pushes in the clutch and you coast until you touch anything-like the brake, accelerator, Jake, cruise control. When Allison finally brings out their TC10, twin countershaft 10spd with a torque converter, I think it will blow every other transmission out of the water-but it will be more expensive then other automated transmissions-but not as expensive as the regurlar Allison automatic. For our use, I'd just stick with the regular Allison transmissions. Virtually all buses, trash trucks, military vehicles, off road equipment are now using Allison type transmissions. On road trucks are really the last bastion of vehicles to switch. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2014, 08:59:18 AM »

It really comes down to the fact that I want to clean things up and make it easier to drive for both myself and my wife. I love my 4107, and want to keep it, but I also want to make it work for me. Not worried about spending a little more to make it what I want, at least while I still can.
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CrabbyMilton
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2014, 09:08:01 AM »

Indeed, there are fewer and fewer vehicles that offer manual transmissions. Maybe a few sporty and small car still offer it or smaller suv's and pickups. But if you want a full size American pickup truck, you had better want an automatic because that's all you can have.I think RAM may offer it in the heavy duty with the diesel but FORD and GM is auto only across the board. That's fine with me since I'm an automatic diehard and being a delivery driver for going on 29 years I would hate the idea of stick. Fire trucks have been almost completely automatic for over 40 years and the manual option went away in the 1980's though few actually specified it after 1973 anyway.
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2014, 11:27:15 AM »

It is interesting to note that the US and Canada are the only countries in the world where vehicles are mostly automatic transmissions. The rest of the planet still happily drives manual cars, buses and trucks. I think it is a culture thing: North Americans have for a long time wanted the easy and convenient. The rest of the world enjoys the more simple aspects of life, where people are more hands on and willing to shift gears for themselves, be more engaged with their daily tasks.

JC
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JC
Invermere, BC
1977 MC5C, 6V92/HT740
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2014, 11:28:10 AM »

 Uncle Ned  Huggybear would love a Bill Teal o-drive and so would you. 4106 and I don't shift into o-drive till 65 mph top speed is Huh speedo only goes to 85. Mileage is 8+ mpg with a 6V92 and 9A90 injectors. Try it you'll like it   olebusman
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CrabbyMilton
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 12:41:02 PM »

Good point Lostagain. But then again if the rest of the world is so wonderful, why did so many come here rather than reverse?
Another reason is that many European automatics were not as good in quality as ALLISON at least the one's they sold here. ZF,VOITH, and RENK had limited sales. VOITH still is offered in some transits but ZF seems to have moved away from fully automatics for buses.
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uncle ned
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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2014, 01:23:07 PM »



I am ready   just how will I get one here on the east coast.

Have heard plenty about them but never seen one.

uncle ned
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« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2014, 02:29:27 PM »

Uncle Ned you just build it. It takes some VS2-6 and VS-8 parts and a little work. Bill Gerrie has one also. I'm in Fl. if you want to see one or the build plans. Nothing that will disable the 730 ,only a few holes in the inside of the case and 3 holes through the bellhousing.  olebusman    sorry for the hijack
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« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2014, 02:58:05 PM »

 When Bill Teal got out of the trans business he sent me ALL the remaining parts he had at that time,(for the cost of shipping) I had enough VS2-8 parts to overhaul or build at least 4 transmissions. When I sold my 4106 5 years ago it all went to the new owner plus a complete set of new brake shoes, S cams, shocks, and misc. parts. I would bet dinner that he still hasn't sorted thru all the "stuff" he has in those large boxes.>>>Dan
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Utahclaimjumper 
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Cedar City, Ut.
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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2014, 02:31:58 PM »

Anybody know of someone trustworthy on the west coast that can completely go through a VR731RH and make it "like new"? Maybe even bulk it up a little?
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luvrbus
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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2014, 04:13:29 PM »

You have a right handed engine in the 4107 I thought the V731RH was a electronic transmission used with right engines in buses like the RTS ?
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« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2014, 04:20:03 PM »

Working on a deal with a right handed engine... All depends on the circumstances... But if it does happen, I want to make sure the tranny is dialed in properly.
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RJ
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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2014, 07:17:16 PM »

Anybody know of someone trustworthy on the west coast that can completely go through a VR731RH and make it "like new"?

Where on the West Coast?

 Huh
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RJ Long
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« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2014, 09:23:00 PM »

I'm in Orange County, it's an hour south of Los Angeles and 2 hours north of San Diego. About 30 minutes from Long Beach.
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B_K
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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2014, 11:01:43 PM »

Don Fairchild has the info on some sweet 6V92 RTS takeouts with trans an cradles!


He's also been doing some Allison training lately (I don't know what he knows an what he needs to learn, but it sure wouldn't hurt to call an ask him! Don @ CCTS http://www.cctskit.com/ )
Grin  BK  Grin
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