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Author Topic: Speedo Cable connection ??????  (Read 4348 times)
Chaz
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« on: December 11, 2006, 04:10:04 PM »

Hey guys,
  I now have time to start working on my coach and one of the first things is I would like to get the speedo working. I found the culprit, but I don't know how to rectify it. See pic:
    NO, it won't just plug in and I put a drill on the cable and it mkes the speedo work fine.
  The guy who had it before me said the tranny had been redone, but after seeing that the cable is not connected, I wonder if it was swapped. All I know is that it's a 3 speed auto. It shifts ok except for when it's cold it down shifts into second pretty hard.
  Any idea on what I need to do to connect it?? I guess there is some sort of adapter out there???

  Also, an easy question for most of you, but I don't know the definition of a "Class A". I was asked by a friend and don't really know. How is it defined?? Would my 4108 be considered one? It doesn't matter what so ever, I like my bus.

  Thanx,
     Chaz
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2006, 08:35:51 PM »

Chaz;
    When you say that the cable just won't plug in do you mean the cable nut is to big or small or won't screw on. I think you are o.k. with the cable an your test with the drill motor. The device on the transmission is just a 90 degree, I had one on a mt 643 that I had purchased for my other bus. I had removed the 90 degree and had put a electronic device on the transmission to drive a new electric speedo. Is your 90 degree electric. Does it have a plug or pins? If the previous owner swapped trans, you may have an electric drive. You can unscrew bottom part of 90 degree and remove. Then match up the cable nut to one that fits. A truck wrecking yard may have one or try Luke, Nimco etc.  Ray
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Chaz
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2006, 05:59:39 AM »

Hmmmmmmmmm....... I'll check it after school. (providing the monsoon isn't hitting about then!)  Tongue
But I'm still a little confused. (what's new!!! Grin)

Thanx,
    Chaz
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2006, 08:09:23 PM »

Hi Chaz;
   I hope I didn't confuse you with my post. What I refer to on the 90 degree is just a angle box. You may be able to plug the cable directly into the trans tail shaft after removing the 90 degree angle box. The angle box just gives a direct way to plug in the cable without having to loop or bow the cable.   The other thing that may be confusing is if it is electric. Look in the end of the angle box, do you see 2 pins? Hope this helps. 
                           Ray
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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2006, 09:40:22 AM »

Chaz the likely culprit is your "pencil gear". Inside that housing is a pencil shaped gear that turns your cable. If it were me I would kabosh the setup you have & get an electric speedo that goes off the front tire. Much easier, very accurate, 12 or 24v.....around $250 for the entire setup....has odometer in the head...........Let me know if you have specific questions.

Rich
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Chaz
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2006, 10:08:12 AM »

This is a better pic:


  It looks like 3 spade connectors inside.

Rich,
  The electric sounds fine, but I have ALLOT of other things that need addressing before I drop 250 on a speedo. Especially if this one can work. Thanx tho.
  I guess I can still keep running without one. I'm not sure the ol'bird will get over 65 mph!!! Wink

   Thanx,
      Chaz
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« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2006, 10:56:32 AM »

If the angle has spade connectors, it's electric. The old manual tranny had the mechanical connection, and that's why it's not hooked up at the moment.

Get a mechancial angle connection from Allison and you'll be in good shape.

BTW, depending on where your governor is set, you can do well over 65mph! I have the same setup... 8v71+V730+4-1/8 rear gear and can cruise ~72mph @ 2100rpm. I can get her up to over 80mph and 2400rpm, but don't recommend it! When kept at ~65mph and about 1900rpm, she can get 8.5mpg on flat ground.

And that's as good as my 4106/4-speed got @ ~70mph... no matter WHAT Fast Fred says.  Wink

Brian B.
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Brian Brown
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« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2006, 12:24:41 PM »

Quote
The old manual tranny had the mechanical connection
  I thought maybe the bus may had a manual trany in the beginning, but I can't find ANY remnents of a clutch or shifter up front. What could be the deal??
Quote
BTW, depending on where your governor is set, you can do well over 65mph!
  I'll ask the guy doing my rack about the governor. I haven't a clue. I know that going to IL. with a 1951 chevy sedan on a trailer on the back only netted me 5.6 mpg. Bummer!! That is a big reason I NEED to go wvo.
  Thanx for the help, Brian. Oh, by the way, any suggestions on where I may find one of those connections used??

   Regards,
      Chaz

 
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« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2006, 01:12:57 PM »

Chaz, for the tranny connection part click here to find a location close (enough) to you. Give them a call and tell them you need a mechanical 90 degree connection for your V730 speedo sender.

Good luck on the WVO... you'll need to drive a LOT of miles to justify outfitting your coach to use this "free" fuel source. There's a lot of proponents of the stuff, and a lot of lip-service being bandied about the Internet about it... but I haven't seen that many successful implimentations of it. I think it would have to be more of a lifestyle choice than a true fuel alternative, once you factor in everything new you'll have to do... as opposed to just filling up w/ diesel at your nearest Flying J. Start adding up the extra tankage, line heaters, switches, filters, pumps, etc. All that stuff costs $ and takes up bay space, and requires a bunch of engineering that you either have to pay for, or spend months retrofitting. And when you're travelling, you'll have to spend some "quality time" finding quality sources of it, transferring it, filtering it, etc.

But "it's free", I hear. Uh-huh. No free setup. Once you pay for that, there's no free filtration. And when you're travelling, vacationing, whatever... say goodbye to a good chunk of your free time. Bah!

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for people using the stuff and working out the kinks for everyone else. Just know that it's clearly not free fuel, nor an apples-to-apples replacement for petro diesel.

My Bah-humbug for the day!
Brian "Scrooge on WVO" B.
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Brian Brown
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« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2006, 07:52:49 PM »

Chaz

I tryed WVO and it's a pain in the butt. Then I went bio-diesel cost about 200 to build a processor that made 40 gal at a time and no heaters switches filters etc just like filling with fueal and more bio fueling at truckstops every day just do a search on bio-diesel yahoo has several groups.

LarryH


PS:
my avg cost for bio was 72 cents pergallon so well worth the money for a processor I just sold my processor and designing one to put in a bay.
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2006, 10:06:42 AM »

Larry and Brian,
  I'd be interested in hearing your reasonings. I talked to Bill Glen and he has a little different opinion.
  I won't be full timing it for a few years yet, so all the use will be a little closer. I won't have to carry a filter system on board that way. I also have a gold mine of wvo about 1/2 mile from me. A buddy owns a KFC and I can have all the wvo oil I could ever use. I may even create old 30 gallon barrel containers on wheels to make it easier on both of us. It seems like a great deal.
  I thought about bio along time, but I'm not so sure I want to get into all that. I am part of an Alternative Energy Group, but I am the first one around here trying this. I have also been on www.journeytoforever.com and checked out some of their ideas on the subject. But I would LOVE to hear you guys side of the story!!! That is the best way to make an informed decision.
  Thanx guys!!!
     Chaz
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2006, 04:26:42 PM »

Chaz, I guess i feel like I gave my reasonings in my rant yesterday. Setting a vehicle up for this additional fuel source is not for the faint of heart (or pocketbook), and busses (as you know) will use regularly hundreds of gallons of the messy stuff. You'll have to go though thousands of gallons before you pay yourself back from all of the tankage, heaters and valves. Finding enough for a fillup when you're away from home will be iffy... and woe be it to you if you ever shut down with that stuff in your fuel pump and injectors and the temperature drops a bit.

As for KFC, make sure they're not using hydrogenated oils. I've heard that these are a no-no for WVO. Just eyeball one of his virgin veggie oil packages sometime. I think peanut and safflower are the best oils for good atomization. I've also heard that many "fried food joints" over-use their oil, burning a bunch of crud that will be suspended in the waste oil.

Home-grown biodiesel has its advantages, since it shoudn't require the tankage, heaters, etc. But creating the stuff in the quantities needed will turn your home into a mini-refinery... and I'd suspect that many municipalies' haz-mat teams might come down on the guy with hundreds of gallons of oil and lots of lye sitting out back. And you'll still be stuck paying for fuel (bio OR petro) when you're more than half-a-tank's radius from home.  Which is 95% of the time for me.

Just playing Devil's Advocate, here.
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Brian Brown
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2006, 07:22:10 PM »

Chaz, I would try taking the 90 degree off.  That may be a mech to elect. adapter.  Try USA Parts for used Allison parts. Good to deal with and knows his Allisons.  800-USA-7899   Your bus would be a class A  a class C has the van or truck front end w/ bunk over top.  Tom Y
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2006, 09:13:24 PM »

I believe you will flind that the angle drive unit shown - and others more or less like it, are straight through mechanical drive units.  They were available in various drive ratios to accomodate different coaches/transmissions, and rear end ratios.  I still have the one that was on the spicer transmission that I removed from my 4106, and if anybody needs it, its yours for the postage.  It has a gear ratio of 1-1/8 to 1.   I believe this points out the advantage of the newer electric speedometers, in that they are programmable - a real plus if you ever change tire and/or wheel sizes, rear end ratios, etc.

On my 4106 the mechanical speedometer drive cable had long since been removed when I bought it, and the speedometer had been replaced with one that worked off the front wheel.  It worked sporadically at best, so, when I installed the V730 I put a pulse generator at the output end of the angle drive unit that came on the transmission, and changed to a newer speedometer.  I bought the speedometer and the adapter from ISSPRO.

tg 
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2006, 06:52:36 AM »

Chaz, I would try taking the 90 degree off.  That may be a mech to elect. adapter.  Try USA Parts for used Allison parts. Good to deal with and knows his Allisons.  800-USA-7899   Your bus would be a class A  a class C has the van or truck front end w/ bunk over top.  Tom Y
And I believe a class B is actually a van conversion.
Richard
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2006, 09:56:53 AM »

But is there any sort of definition?? I assume we all have class A's so would that mean we could get into any class A campground?? Not that I would, as i understand they can be pretty pricey. I'm more of a grass roots kind of traveler.
  Chaz
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2006, 10:18:25 AM »

Chaz, when calling for reservations just use the word "motorcoach" and you will have no problems. Never, ever, under any circumstances call it a "bus". One conjures up Marathon Prevo$ts and Extreme Makeover Home Edition's coaches... whilst the other makes 'em think about Partridge Family and hippie skoolies.

Now, when they see your "motorcoach" pull up, depending on how it looks, they might have some second thoughts. But from you pics, yours seems fine. "Blue Velvet", our old peeling-paint 4106, was never refused at the few campgrounds we visited with her.

HTH,
Brian

p.s. sadly, it appears old B.V. is for sale again. poor thing...
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Brian Brown
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2006, 10:26:40 AM »

But is there any sort of definition?? I assume we all have class A's so would that mean we could get into any class A campground?? Not that I would, as i understand they can be pretty pricey. I'm more of a grass roots kind of traveler.
  Chaz
In a class A motor home the driver and passenger is actually in the living portion of the coach. In a class C, the driving portion and the living portion are separate. In the class C a commercial van body is cut directly behind the front seat and a new body is constructed for the living quarters.
Richard
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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2006, 10:31:17 AM »

     A Class C motorhome is a motorhome built on a van chassis usually with a bed above the van cockpit area. I think Richard is correct that a class B is a van conversion that uses the entire OEM van body with maybe a raised roof cap. A Class A is your standard motorhome built on a heavy duty chassis with the entire exterior built by the motorhome manufacturer (as opposed to a class C thast uses the front end from the chassis manufacter such as Ford, Chevrolet, or Dodge).  
     As already mentioned anytime you call a campground for reservations, you have a 40 (or 35) foot Class A motorhome or motorcoach. NEVER say you have a bus.  Hope this helps, Jack
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« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2006, 10:51:19 AM »

This is a better pic:


  It looks like 3 spade connectors inside.

Rich,
  The electric sounds fine, but I have ALLOT of other things that need addressing before I drop 250 on a speedo. Especially if this one can work. Thanx tho.
  I guess I can still keep running without one. I'm not sure the ol'bird will get over 65 mph!!! Wink

   Thanx,
      Chaz

I don't know why it would be on your bus but I have seen units like on trucks with 2 speed rearends. The unit switches ratios to the speedo to match the rearend ratio. Could also be a speed sensor for cruise control.
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« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2006, 10:16:14 PM »

Hey Chaz

  If you hooked a drill to the cable and spun it up that means (to Me) that You are close to a cheap fix. Alot of good advise. Probably a mechanical drive speedo. Could have a pulse generator driven by the cable farther up inline, but either way those systems are working?. If the cable does not screw into the 90 degree adapter, something has been changed, No problem. Hopefully the Gear drive in the tranny is not stripped. I do not know if your bus came with mechanical Speedo drive, but they are not very reliable.

Ok, 35' of spedo cable 30-40 years old? Most are switched to pulse generators screwed directly into the trans (where your picture shows the 90 degree adapter, or driven off a pulse generator @ the front wheel or other) and electrically transmitted to the newer style electrical spedo. If mechanical and still useable consider yourself extreeeeeeemly lucky. Shocked

   Ok Wvo is not for everybody. Nothing is free.  Sad

 "I think it would have to be more of a lifestyle choice than a true fuel alternative, once you factor in everything new you'll have to do... as opposed to just filling up w/ diesel at your nearest Flying J."
Brian Brown      Smiley

Much easier to just pull up to the pump and fork over the money. I agree. Tongue

   I FEEL there are alot of reasons to use alternative fuels.  Wink

"The diesel engine can be fed with vegetable oils and would help considerably in the development of agriculture of the countries which use it"
"The use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignificant today. But such oils may become in course of time as important as petroleum and the coal tar products of the present time."
Rudolf Diesel 1911

"I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power!
I hope we don't have to wait till oil and coal run out before we tackle that."
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I like to take the road less traveled, We all have a choice. Grin


Good luck With yours

Bill Glenn

Hope to see you in Arcadia @ Jack & Paula's PARTY! Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink
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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2006, 12:15:34 AM »

Fair enough, Bill. Rather than fill a post full of smileys and 100 year-old quotes, why not illuminate the masses on your WVO conversion?! Digital pics, diagrams, blogs, videos, real-world data... something.

If you've got the system, why be so smug?

So you're the "road less travelled." I appreciate that, Kerouac. Just share. That's what this Board is all about...

Brian "at the mercies of the oil companies" Brown
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Brian Brown
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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2006, 04:09:49 AM »

Just a word of caution here:

Many topics that come up on this board seem to be emotionally charged and end up with someone feeling attacked or belittled. Let's not let that happen.

Please use this forum to share ideas and information for the good of all, and keep things civil so we don't lose any more members.


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Chaz
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2006, 08:20:15 AM »

Agreed. I would LOVE for this to be a good informative discussion---------and civil!

 Brian,
  Bill has been using wvo for a few years now and does have some good real world info. He is also a man after my own heart and is willing to spend his time to experiment and try to make the future better for us all - ESPECIALLY the kids and grand kids and great grand kids that will be inheriting this pretty blue rock. Monitory gain is always a driving force, and but the cutting edge always has allot of "caring" in it also.  I am VERY thankful that there are others out there that are grass roots type people who care enough to invest their time and money.   I hope he finds time to share with us all. He has been a big help to me. There is also a wvo bus forum. There is allot of info there.
  By the way, just in case I read this correctly, I think you are of the impression that if I run wvo that I can't run regular diesel. (Huh?)  At least when you mentioned that you can just pull in a filling station and fill up at your conveinence has me thinking that you think I can't. I can and will have to occassionally as I need to also run regular diesel to start and stop the engine. (I think you mentioned that you also knew this) So with wvo I just have 2 options. And it doesn't take all that much to filter and use wvo.... at least that is my impression at present. Technology is catching up, finally. And at the price of diesel fuel, my pay back per hour looks pretty good.
 
  I hope that we can discuss this here so others can have a sense of what it takes and what is out there. I also hope that it can be done in a way that people won't be hurt. It's sometimes hard to put the right emotion in the written word so it can be joking and not hurting. (I've seen this on ALL the other forums I've been apart of) So I hope we can convey our feelings correctly.
  By the way, being a "devils advocate" is a GOOD THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Without challenge, you never get better!!!!!! I welcome that. It's for the best.
  I hope this thread can continue.
    All the best,
      Chaz
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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2006, 01:46:05 PM »

When the "space shuttle" rolls into your town - you will certainly find Bill spending untold hours exhibiting and explaining his system to all that ask - There may be others with as much knowledge and experience with WVO out there, But none that I have seen whom are part of this community -
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« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2006, 01:51:00 PM »

Sorry if anyone thought what I said was un-civil. I do get a bit annoyed that someone takes what I've written, puts a bunch of smileys on it, and writes things that, IMHO, do very little to counter what I wrote. When I learn something about busses (or even learn something what not to do with busses), I'll take pictures, make webpages, or at least otherwise share my busnut wisdom in full disclosure... not just make lively dialogue. Mr. Glenn should share what he's done, share how much he spent, share what kind of climate(s) he's driven WVO in, share how much time he spends procuring alternative fuels and what's involved to make a WVO system viable. I can tell by his "handle" that he obviously has some experience with it, but may also have some "axe to grind" here on this forum.

Is that a more civil way of saying that?

Chaz, yes, I'm familiar enough with the WVO systems to know that it needs to be a dual system, you start and shut off the DD on petro diesel. After the clean WVO is heated sufficiently, and the engine warmed up sufficiently, you throw a valve (manual or elec.) to run WVO through the engine. If you use the DD heads to warm the WVO, it should keep the fuel warm in most temperate driving conditions. Where I live, and where you live, Chaz, you'll have to have a tank heater and line heaters to keep the fuel from gelling at probably  ~40deg. and under. As I mentioned before, you'll need a good supply of the proper fuel. Lubricity isn't a problem, obviously, with the veggie-based oils, but the injectors might sustain some coking if proper atomization isn't reached.

I have no doubt an MUI DD will run quite well on veggie fuels (WVO or bio)... but the temperature issues are the most concerning, followed by supply (finding enough of it), and filtration (~1 micron final).

I ran into a bunch of college kids at my local County Fair this summer. They were running WVO in an old green skoolie and driving it across the country to promote it. They even had a bevy of corporate sponsorships, so "good for them." But I soon found that I knew more about WVO and its usage than most of them onboard. Which is fine... I just desperately wanted more info than they were able to give.

I for one would love to learn more about the viability of WVO and Bio. I think this Board is a perfect place to do that. I'd be happy to help Mr. Glenn and others that do know about it more than me to help publish their findings, create Websites... whatever.

But I will be the first one that asks, "but what about this or what about that?" Or, "what happens here and there?" It's just in my nature, and I feel it protects the uninitiated from making very expen$ive choices with their coaches.

Thanks,
Brian Brown
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« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2006, 09:42:16 PM »

Hey Brian

I Do NOT think You are being uncivil. I do not want to "counter" what you wrote!  Yea I have not made a bunch of web pages, And have not published alot of pictures.  I do TRY to share my experiences with OUR community.
 Damn, Did I sound "SMUG" I appologise. Not my Intent.

  I am trying to share MY experiences. I do not have THE SYSTEM, There are alot of questions, My only PHD hangs in the garage (post hole digger) Grin (sorry for the smiley faces) Grin Grin Grin Grin .  Academia, Politicians, And engineers, (sorry Kyle).
 You do not want to know how much I have Spent. I have run in all types of climates,(ok Buswarrior, not all winter like you have), I have not spent enough time collecting my alternative fuel, I am still wasting hundreds of gallons a month.

I have alot of AXES to grind, we all do. I LOVE LIVELY DIALOGUE, No Problem. 


Thanks Niles
You know me, I live for this stuff.

Hey Dallas
I have thick skin. (Moderators job is never done) 

I do not feel attacked or belittled. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Brian has brought up some Very Important points.

Good to see how other people see it. Especially Our family of busnuts. 

Ok Chaz

You need to bring the ICE to Arcadia.

Not wanting to be at the mercies of ANYONE. Bill


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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2006, 10:49:06 PM »

Thanks, Mr. Glenn. I would very much like to see your space shuttle bus sometime (it's freakin' cool) and pick your brain about WVO. Please do keep on being a pioneer in this field of "grease" and busses... and keep on sharing your experiences with others.

Now that I know where you're coming from, I'll be more civilized in my responses.  Smiley
Brian B.
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Brian Brown
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Longmont, CO
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« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2006, 03:49:58 AM »

If any of you are ever passing through Delaware getting in touch with Bill and Roberta is a must do,Kathy and I had the pleasure of stopping there for a night (Bill and Roberta are as gracious as any two people can be),Bill took me too his shop where he is building a large wvo system that very quickly got over my understanding of it but I did learn the basics of it and it is quite an impressive setup he is building,and as a sidenote he has the only truckstop that carries rotella 40 wt oil on the shelf that I have seen,Tuley a great guy to know and learn from.  Bill we will see you tomorrow evening on our way to NY,will give you a call later today   Mike
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« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2006, 09:27:00 PM »

Back to the original topic.

What you have is a combination angle drive adapter/ translator unit.  Yours uses an angle drive; Eagles use a straight drive -- same basic thing.  See the nut that secures it to the tranny?  When you turn that nut, it will turn up the barrel toward the adapter; when it is all the way up, you can remove the drive from the lower barrel.  Be careful removing it, because there is a removeable tang inside it that is very easy to lose!  The lower barrel is actually a drive extension which can also be removed to access the speedo drive gear; I would take it out and check it to make sure it is not damaged.  If it is ok, replace it in the hole and replace the drive extension barrel -- all of your new parts will go ONTO this extension barrel.  The end of the drive gear shaft that is visible in the barrel should have a slot -- this is where the tang fits into.

When you get your replacement mechanical drive unit, here are some tips for installing it. 

  • It will come with the angle drive unit/ mechanical translator (and maybe an intermediate drive extension), as well as a small bag with several different tang styles. 
  • Sort through the tangs and select the one(s) that fit the best. 
  • If you are going to use the intermediate drive extension, fit the tang into the bottom of it and screw it's barrel nut all the way up the extension body without "topping it out". 
  • Place the bottom end of the intermediate drive extension on top of the drive gear extension barrel and make sure that the tang engages the slot; turn the barrel nut down so that it begins threading onto the drive gear extension barrel.
  • Make sure that you hold the intermediate drive extension to keep it from turning -- the only thing that should turn is the barrel nut. 
  • It will tighten down onto the extension barrel. 


The angle drive unit/ mechanical translator goes on with the same procedure, and if you are not using the intermediate drive extension barrel, just substitute "angle drive unit/ mechanical translator" for "intermediate drive extension" in the above description.  The speedo cable will fit into and screw onto the end of the new angle drive unit.

Good luck with your new speedo!
« Last Edit: December 17, 2006, 09:29:12 PM by TejasCoachWorks » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2006, 05:54:10 AM »

Wow, thanx!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was VERY thorough!! I think I can even follow that!!  Grin
 I really appreciate your help!!!
   Chaz
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« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2006, 03:52:26 PM »

Great info from the guys at Tejas........I hope it works out......Sometimes it just takes the right person to see your thread.

Rich
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« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2006, 08:43:02 AM »

Tang ...... huh, Uh I don't mean to be a smart @$# or a dumb one either! But the only TANG I ever knew about was the kind ya drink! Well maybe 1 other, lol! (But this is not the place to get into detali about it! LOL!)

Could you enlighten me and I'm sure some others as to what a tang is? What it looks like & does? Thanks BK  Grin
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« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2006, 03:17:09 PM »

Here's a pic of the one I used on my V-730.  ISSPRO Part Speed/Tach R8973 Drive Tip 0.203
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akbusguy2000
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« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2006, 03:32:56 PM »

Here's the ISSPRO page that I meant to include in the prior post, sorry,
tg

http://www.isspro.com/products.php?cat=72

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