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Author Topic: BIO-DIESEL  (Read 878 times)
saddleup
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« on: July 13, 2014, 02:22:55 PM »

40cents less a gal. here in Prineville.just be topin off with 40-50 gal on top the good stuff..anybody ran much of it in there Detroit...put 90gal.in a couple years ago and thought it ran better but then again that was free..
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2014, 03:27:22 PM »

Hi Matt, in LA and San Bernadino county's there is 15% biodiesel only, manditory, tom, lvmci...
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2014, 05:53:40 PM »

All Loves Fuel Stops have gone to only bio-diesel.  Have a friend that has had to change fuel filters twice as often since using it - he no longer buys it and that is why I don't buy fuel at Loves.
My two cents
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2014, 06:09:53 PM »

I thought 15% bio was a fed regulation(Renewable Fuel Standard) here in AZ it was 5% but I see it now all the pumps say 15% I read some where it is going to be 50/50 in 2020 I have noticed the newer engines say 50% Bio now up from the 20% of a few years ago
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 06:15:33 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2014, 09:02:13 PM »

biodiesel from recycled cooking oil makes economic sense -- assuming the restraunt in not recycling otherwise.

so-called renewable biodiesel directly from plant sources just makes food prices higher while providing assured profits for Archer-Daniels and the like, assured jobs for bureaucrats, and another place to spend our tax dollars.

everybody I know of doing biodiesel from algae or switch-grass is either bankrupt, getting there, or government funded.

In all cases, the only scientific research I have found says biodiesel produces more NOx pollutants because it has longer molecular chains than petrodiesel.

edward
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2014, 02:38:02 AM »

Local Cummins shop when asked about using the bio fuel, just commented, about the issues they have had with filtering and how frequent the filters need replaced, including a comment about more than once finding a french fry in the filter assy.
Best carry spare filters with tools to change when needed.
Dave M
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2014, 03:45:40 AM »

What is the long term affect on our 2 strokes ?
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2014, 09:41:05 AM »

I have made and burned thousands of gallons of B100 biodiesel over the years, almost exclusively from used cooking oil.  I don't have Detroit Diesel experience, but have burned the fuel in a Mercedes Benz OM606, a Volkswagen V10TDI, and a Cummins ISB -- all without any issues.  

The fuel filter thing is a red herring.  If the biodiesel is properly filtered before it goes in your tank, it will not clog your system any worse than D1 or D2.  The issue is that biodiesel is an exceptional solvent, and it will quickly clean out your tank and lines.  All the sludge that has built up from years of petrodiesel use winds up in the filter.  So yes, you may go through one or two fairly quickly, but following that you should not have any unusual replacement intervals.  On my vehicles, I replace the diesel filter every 15k miles, and it's preventive maintenance -- it has been years since a "biodiesel cleanout" stalled me anywhere.  I also centrifuge my fuel, so it goes in the tank already filtered to sub-1-micron.  (Note that soap -- a byproduct of the biodiesel production process -- will also clog a filter in a hurry...but if you have soap in your fuel, someone did a really lousy job making the biodiesel in the first place.)

Also remember that fuel you buy commercially has a very small amount of biodiesel in it.  The pump tags may read B5 or B15, but that is a maximum amount (meaning 5% biodiesel, or 15% biodiesel, respectively) and the blends are often lower.  The vast majority of what you pump into the tank is still dinosaur juice.  

The two-stroke engines will burn nearly anything, and the four strokes aren't very far behind -- I would have no qualms about putting low-blend pump fuel through one of these engines.  Heck, I would have no problem putting straight B100 through, but that's just me and I've done it for years on some pretty pricey engines.  Some folks make a big to-do over the high pressure injection systems, but I've never had a problem with that.  You just want to make sure the fuel is clean and dry.  Water in biodiesel is just as bad as water in D2, so make sure it's dry if you're making it yourself.  If you buy it, just like any fuel, you're subject to whatever is in the station's tank.  More than the engine, you will need to watch for rubber incompatibility.  Older fuel lines, O-rings, and things of that nature may be more or less subject to the solvent fuel depending on their age and what material was used.  Viton seems to be everyone's favorite for biodiesel compatibility.  Sometimes you get leaks as a warning sign, and occasionally a hose might collapse and kill an engine from fuel starvation, but that's a bit of a rarity.

The reality is that there is not enough waste oil/fat to offset any significant portion of the US's diesel consumption.  As for emissions, the best bet is using these low blends.  A B10-B20 blend will get you a majority of the emissions improvements compared against D2 (lower CO, lower particulate, lower SOx, and depending on the study, lower NOx), and spreads that benefit over a lot more miles / vehicles than just a few folks running straight B100.

Incidentally, B100 has about 10% lower energy content than an equivalent volume of D2 -- meaning that it has to be 10% cheaper to get the same "bang for the buck" on fuel mileage.  But remember, that is on non-blended, straight biodiesel.  If someone is selling B5 or B10 with a forty-cent discount, you're actually getting pretty cheap diesel and I'd fill up!  My local biodiesel station is selling unblended B100 at $3.40/gal right now.  D2 is selling around $3.65/gal here, so the savings is arguably not worth it in that scenario.  You would need about a forty-cent spread to break even on the non-blended fuel.  If he was selling B5 at $3.40, I'd consider filling a tote or two before the winter heating oil crunch comes up north.

Cheers, John
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 09:45:47 AM by dukegrad98 » Logged
robertglines1
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2014, 04:41:14 PM »

John & others on bio diesel ?? The mechanics are saying there is a shelf life when in tank of less than a year??  True or false?? has been a factor in some heavy equipment not used over off season at our training site..    Bob
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2014, 05:04:41 PM »

The series 60 Detroit's are 20% Bio I have no idea about the DD13's
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2014, 06:17:44 PM »

John & others on bio diesel ?? The mechanics are saying there is a shelf life when in tank of less than a year??  True or false?? has been a factor in some heavy equipment not used over off season at our training site..

Hi, Bob!  Good to see you.

A couple of things can go wrong in storage, but fuel stored well or in a good tank should last a long while.  Too much air exposure can cause biodiesel to oxidize.  If it smells like paint or paint thinner, that's the road you are going down.  Lots of sun (UV) exposure can greatly accelerate this.  Fuel in a sealed metal barrel should last a LONG time.  Waste vegetable oil (WVO) is even more susceptible to these issues -- and don't confused diluted/blended WVO (cut with diesel, kerosene, gasoline, etc.) with biodiesel.  WVO blends are a totally different animal -- probably fine in a lot of these engines, but that's a whole different conversation.

Finally, biodiesel is a little more hygroscopic than regular fuel, so it can absorb humidity from the air if you live somewhere like Houston or Miami.  If your fuel is marginal to start with, over time you could get out-of-spec for water.  I've never had the problem.  Then again, fuel doesn't last a year in any of my tanks, and fuel that I keep in storage is usually in air-tight and light-tight drums.  Also, water can stay suspended in biodiesel more easily than in D2, rather than dropping out as free water that can be blocked by a filter or separator -- but again, this is an issue in high blends, not the very low blends you're likely to find at a regular station.  I've got one 15-gallon HDPE plastic barrel of homemade B100 that is at least 4-5 years old now, sitting in a dark part of my barn.  That fuel is still on-spec and I wouldn't hesitate to use it, except that it has turned itself into a neat experiment in having an old barrel of fuel in the corner...

All of these problems are GREATLY reduced when the proportion of biodiesel is reduced.  B5-B10 I wouldn't worry about at all, because it's still 90-95% petrodiesel.  B20 I might think about just a little bit, B100 moreso.  If I had a translucent plastic barrel of B100 sitting in the sun and open to the air here in Texas, I would be concerned about its useful life in less time than a year.  In a decent vehicle tank, I wouldn't be too concerned even at higher blends.

Cheers, John
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krank
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2014, 06:37:46 PM »

Is there any filter issues or any specific filter better for use with a high(er) blend?
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Jim Eh.
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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2014, 06:41:38 PM »

Minnesota was one of the first states to require B5 blend.  I haven't had any fuel filter problems with bio-diesel blends yet.  I do carry spare filters and tools just in case.
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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2014, 06:42:43 PM »

Assumption is: got a load of high % bio part. Symptoms included white gel like substance in fuel filters.  Results in monitoring supply with off road fuel being of non bio content.  cured problem. Also was informed to watch out for diesel mix derived from natural gas.  Problem occurred in bulldozers, earth movers ,and cranes.Yes tanks were topped off for idle time.For discussion purposes only: meant to be aware of your fuel supply. I am going to error to the cautious side.  Good discussion..I don't know answers--just results and info from mechanics involved.   Bob
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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2014, 06:51:52 PM »

Assumption is: got a load of high % bio part. Symptoms included white gel like substance in fuel filters.

Good discussion, Bob -- it's rare that I have something I can contribute to around here!

That white gunk is almost surely soap, and is a common problem in biodiesel that wasn't well-processed and (more specifically) not well-washed.  I won't bore you with all the details, but when the methanol, reagent/catalyst (KOH or NAOH), and vegetable oil are mixed for reacting -- any water present during the reaction will form soap.  The soap frequently stays dissolved in the excess methanol used in the reaction.  In a good reaction, soap production is minimal to start with, and it is always removed during the fuel washing and drying process.  Someone that did not dry their source oil well and/or did not wash and dry the fuel properly could have a lot of soap, and when the excess methanol is removed the soap comes out of solution.  That will clog a filter or foul a tank every time.

Bob, my guess is that your guys got a load of poorly reacted and/or poorly washed and dried fuel.  Keeping water out of the reaction and out of the finished fuel is a key factor to producing quality biodiesel.  Dry fuel prevents everything from clogged filters to damaged injectors.

Cheers, John
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