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Author Topic: How Much Does It Cost  (Read 1440 times)
luvrbus
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« on: August 04, 2014, 07:21:36 AM »

A lot of talk about engine swaps and rebuilding the 2 strokes I spent a little time talking to friends at DD dealers across the US last week and they were all about the same for a rebuild to put the 71 and 92 series engine N/A back to OEM specs for a out of frame rebuild here it is read it and weep

United Engine in OK   $2800 + per cylinder
WW WIlliams in AZ    $3000  +
Stewart and Stevenson in Tx  $3000 to $3500 +
Pacific Power  in Or $3500 +
Valley Power a whopping  $4800 +

the price on a TA engine rebuild goes up

All these prices are without needing major components like the crank ( 4900.00) with rebuilt heads, 3000.00 each for new no line boring or new main caps these old girls are getting expensive to rebuild when I started you could figure a $ 100.00 a cylinder   

A little  info you guys
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Mex-Busnut
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2014, 07:37:52 AM »

Wow! Some days a fellow doesn´t earn that kind of money!

I love our Mexican labor costs. I spent a total of 45,000 pesos parts and labor (aprox. $3,330 U. S.) for completely rebuilding both heads, all new sleeves and pistons, gasket sets, etc. And I thought that was a lot of money! Most parts for the *53, *71 and *92 series Detroits are still being made and sold down here.

The brand new radiator core with installation was less than $700 U. S.
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Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
1981 Dina Olímpico (Flxible Flxliner clone), 6V92TA Detroit Diesel
Rockwell model RM135A 9-speed manual tranny.
Jake brakes
100 miles North West of Mexico City, Mexico. 6,800 feet altitude.
rusty
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2014, 07:50:25 AM »

I have heard the price of 40 to 50 k to but in a four stroke and automatic. If you figure 1/2 the price is labor and you can do the work yourself it makes sense to put in a four stroke. You can get a little better fuel mileage and they are easier to cool. My labor when I am off the clock is worth nothing, or if you figure it takes you two months to change it out that is about 25 an hour based on a 50 hour week. The price is for a used motor and trans so you will have to guess how long that set will last before you have to pour more money in a rebuild of that set up

Wayne
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luvrbus
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2014, 07:57:58 AM »

Wayne we both know a guy that spent 55 grand on 8v92 2 years later the turbo turn loose and he spent another 50 grand,one thing about the 4 strokes the electronics don't lie they are easy to track with the little hand held gizmo and if they ever been in a dealers shop it will be on record heck the 2 strokes have been around before the word record was in the dictionary Roll Eyes 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 08:03:14 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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rusty
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2014, 08:07:16 AM »

Yes it is a crap shoot. I was thinking about my labor calculations and I made a mistake. When you get done with the conversion to a four stroke you will not get back the 40 or 50 k. You will be lucky to get back 1/2 of it if you were to sell the bus. So that puts the labor back to 0 our less. Oh well think of all the fun you had.

Wayne
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Dave5Cs
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1979 MCI MC5Cs 6V-71 HT-740 Allison, Roseville, CA




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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2014, 08:12:36 AM »

I guess there is something good to say about only having the 6 V 71 and no Turbo!...... Grin
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luvrbus
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2014, 08:14:40 AM »

That is so true the guy that spent all the money for engines tried to sell his Eagle for less than the price of the 2 engines and never could
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uncle ned
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2014, 08:27:44 AM »



Driving a old 6-71 is fine till you set down in a 6v92 turbo with big injectors and auto.

lots of smoke and heat but people get out of your way and don't follow to close.

Just have to carry along a lot of carolina mountain spring water to stay cool.

uncle ned
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4104's forever
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bevans6
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2014, 09:18:32 AM »

Clifford, what are the hours to to the rebuild, do you think?  Makes my NOS military rebuilt 8V-71T with zero hours on it look pretty good for $2K...

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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luvrbus
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2014, 09:52:28 AM »

A out of frame rebuilding to OEM specs by the time you remove and reinstall back in the vehicle it can reach a 100 hrs plus easy 
 
You can spend 2 or 3 days fitting liners to the block on 71 series since you cannot buy different sizes any more like the 1,2,3 or 4 sizes now it's one size fits all you make them work anything over 4 then it is big bucks to bore the block something I am not a fan of.

 Most shops don't care if takes a hammer and block of wood to drive one in that's ok with them the engine will last past the warranty period 99% of the time   
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 10:32:30 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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Connel
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2014, 11:28:58 AM »

BusNuts,

Makes my DDEC IV Ser 60 with 133,000 miles & HD4060PR Allison with zero miles seem like a super deal! Wink Kiss

Connel
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Central Oklahoma

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Will & Wife
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2014, 05:50:03 PM »

Just makes me reconsider the value of this old girl, (not my DW!). I will definitely keep the towing on my insurance policy because if she ever craps out, she's being towed to her final resting place and probably mine too. That's straight from the old girl's mouth (DW).

 Will
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lostagain
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2014, 06:16:24 PM »

Yea but a lot of the time you wouldn't need to do a complete rebuild to OEM specs. Just fix what's broke and keep on busing... Or look for a used take out that runs good to replace your broke one. You can do that for way less than rebuilding to new specs.

JC
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JC
Invermere, BC
1977 MC5C, 6V92/HT740
challenger440
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2014, 06:53:30 PM »

Back in the mid 80's I worked in an engine machine shop.  I would grind the caps and rod beams on a small block chevy, (resize big and small end) send them to a hone to be finished.  SBC rods cost a couple of bucks each.  Rods for a 4308 Cat took the same amount of work, same machine, and cost 10 times as much.  Very disappointing to see 4k per hole on a mechanical engine.  Bend over, you drive a big rig, you WILL afford it!

JM
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John M.
Helena, Mt
MC7  "under construction"
luvrbus
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2014, 06:08:40 AM »

I am with JC but shops don't want to do the repairs or fixes any longer just major rebuilds,there does come a time in life when 1 does need a complete rebuild they will only take a inframe so many times fwiw, there is a old saying the 2 strokes never die naturally they are murdered  

I have a 8v92 here now that was murdered not by a owner but a shop (big shop) that had no idea what they were doing Roll Eyes The shop installed 3 sets of new cam follower rollers on 3 cylinders they failed taking out the cams on both sides all because the shop did not know you cook and treat the rollers in Cindol for 30 minutes and now he is out of warranty because the bus just set for months sad he paid 27,000 bucks for the overhaul
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 06:29:14 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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Lostranger
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2014, 09:23:36 AM »

This thread underscores one of the many reasons I swore off two strokes while we owned the Flx Metro. 6v92TA. Ran great. Peed oil. Expensive to repair.

The 40 Series DD in our Gillig appears to be fine. I know they get mixed reviews among "professionals", but if it does crap out, I have several reasonably priced options. Some of those options are spelled c-u-m-m-i-n-s.

The death knoll for the Metro was when I found out that it is next to impossible to convert that body to tee drive. I was hoping to install a 50 series. If I had a two stroke bus facing major engine work, and I could repower, I would not hesitate.

Best of luck with your engine woes.

Jim
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Jim Huskins
Marion, NC
1999 Gillig H2000LF
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You CAN convert a low floor.
harleyman_1000
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2014, 09:39:56 AM »

This thread underscores one of the many reasons I swore off two strokes while we owned the Flx Metro. 6v92TA. Ran great. Peed oil. Expensive to repair.

The 40 Series DD in our Gillig appears to be fine. I know they get mixed reviews among "professionals", but if it does crap out, I have several reasonably priced options. Some of those options are spelled c-u-m-m-i-n-s.

The death knoll for the Metro was when I found out that it is next to impossible to convert that body to tee drive. I was hoping to install a 50 series. If I had a two stroke bus facing major engine work, and I could repower, I would not hesitate.

Best of luck with your engine woes.

Jim


Hmmmm now I'm thinking........ Clifford, since you know my bus, if I ever get to the point of needing a new engine, how hard would it be to put a Cummings in my 4104?
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Scott 
St.Louis Missouri

1958 GM 4104 Extended 2 feet, with a 6v92 and 5 speed automatic

http://s783.photobucket.com/user/harleyman_1000/library/Gm4104%20bus?sort=3&page=1
Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2014, 09:42:53 AM »


Hmmmm now I'm thinking........ Clifford, since you know my bus, if I ever get to the point of needing a new engine, how hard would it be to put a Cummings in my 4104? 

    Probably about as hard as putting a 8.3 ISC (with Allison B400R) in a 40 year old British bus.  I hope to have more for you soon on that! 
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

(New Email -- brucebearnc@ (theGoogle gmail place) .com)
harleyman_1000
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2014, 03:56:23 PM »

    Probably about as hard as putting a 8.3 ISC (with Allison B400R) in a 40 year old British bus.  I hope to have more for you soon on that! 

 I already have a T-Drive and auto tranny in my bus, so was hopeful it would be easier?
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Scott 
St.Louis Missouri

1958 GM 4104 Extended 2 feet, with a 6v92 and 5 speed automatic

http://s783.photobucket.com/user/harleyman_1000/library/Gm4104%20bus?sort=3&page=1
bevans6
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2014, 05:17:34 PM »

A six cylinder engine will be about 12" longer than your current engine, a 4 cylinder like the S50 will be about the same length or 3" or 4" longer.  Both will be about the same height.  Your conversion will tell the tale.  How much more room out the back do you have?

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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luvrbus
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2014, 06:14:52 PM »

Problem with any engine in conversions they are not driven enough nothing wrong with the 2 stroke if it is kept up and drove they don't use anymore oil than the 4 strokes when in good shape, it is just that a 2 stroke will bring you home with a lot of problems going on with the engine, the electronic 4 strokes are dead in water with the least bit of problems.

I didn't start the topic to bad mouth a 2 stroke it was just info on cost, have you guys bought any Cummins or Detroit 50 or 60 series parts lately price some  it will wake you up from a deep sleep. ::)LOL how about 62 grand for a out of frame on a DD 13 @ WW.Williams I saw a invoice today while visiting my friends at Arrow in Phoenix a little over 1/2 of the bill was covered under warranty still  it was a chunk of money 
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TomC
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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2014, 06:39:39 PM »

One of the main reasons any of the DD engines are so high to overhaul, is when something blows, it usually takes out the catalytic converter, DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) and the Selective Catalyst (where the DEF [Diesel Exhaust Fluid] is burned) that costs alone around $18,000.

When I had my 8V-71 overhauled in 2000, it was $11,000 then. Spent another $6,000 turboing it and another $11,000 overhauling the V730 transmission. Detroit 2 strokes are very hardy and will most times get you home. I went from New York back to L.A. on 7 cyliners when I blew an injector lifter-barely knew the difference. I have seen so many instances of being able to start a 2 stroke or running one when either a Cummins or Caterpillar wouldn't even dream of running. Truckers in Alaska still love the 2 strokers because of winter starting ease. I just wish they still made 2 strokers. If Detroit or MTU applied the same engine technology to the 2 strokers as they have to the DD engines, many would still be running them. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2014, 08:56:04 PM »

   I already have a T-Drive and auto tranny in my bus, so was hopeful it would be easier? 

     My original engine transmission is "X-drive" (you don't really want to know - the engine and transmission are transverse) -- but that leaves a great big wide hole for lots of stuff to go in.  Another big benefit, the original engine/trans is approx 3350 lbs; the Cummins/Allison is 2200.  There's going to be some custom engine mounts and added weight like bigger radiator but there's still going to be a BIG weight saving c/gravity about 7 feet behind the rear axle; also, I'm using the Gillig (Meritor) rear axle, also a lot lighter with more weight rating.  It's going to be fun!
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

(New Email -- brucebearnc@ (theGoogle gmail place) .com)
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