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Author Topic: 24 volt vacuum pumps  (Read 4911 times)
bevans6
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« on: November 20, 2014, 05:26:12 AM »

I have shelved, at this point, my work on an air operated clutch.  Mostly because Bruce sent me detailed photo's of his hydraulic clutch installation that will work a whole lot better.  It would need an electric vacuum pump to supply vacuum to the brake booster, so I was looking for 24 volt vacuum pumps.  All I find is Alibaba pages and wholesalers in China.  I figure every diesel truck and electric vehicle must have a pump, so they must be out there...  Any leads?

Brian
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Jim Eh.
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2014, 05:40:00 AM »

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« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 05:45:47 AM by krank » Logged

Jim Eh.
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2014, 06:43:16 AM »

The old gmc's Cadilacs & mercedes diesels had them. 6.2 liter gm. New trucks do not that I know of my duramax is hydrolic  & runs off power steering pump for brake boost.
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2014, 06:55:21 AM »

The pump I used came from a Oxygen Concentrator, you can find them used. It will give a vacuum & or air pressure run on 110V AC from inverter, a lot less noise then DC ones.
Bruce
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Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2014, 07:17:41 AM »

    If you need a little accumulator/storage component for a extra capacity or to smooth things out, you can use one off a '99-'05 VW TDI Jetta, Golf, or Beetle.  They're about the size of a baseball and have connections to fit usual sized vac hose. 
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2014, 07:54:15 AM »

Many Diesel cars and trucks used hydraulic brake boosters that worked off the power steering pump. If you have power steering, I would think it would be relatively easy to tap into the power steering lines to get booster pressure for the clutch assist. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
bevans6
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2014, 08:06:52 AM »

Thanks for the idea's guys.  I have found many options for 12vdc units, and am now going to start to research the hydoboost idea.  It's not like there isn't a perfectly good source of power steering pressure about 6" from where the boost unit is going to be.  I want to run it "off the engine", which is a poor way of saying I want it to be fully contained and power by the prime mover engine, the 8V-71, without non-DOT approvable stuff in between, hence I would shy away from the 12v ( which is really the house battery system, even if I have an optional tap to charge that system from the engine) or the 120 vac from the inverter option.

I found  nice chart that gives you the boost of a vacuum assist unit based on a nominal 23" of vacuum and the size of the boost unit.  You can easily double the input pressure.

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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stevet903
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2014, 09:28:27 AM »

Here's a 24v one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/THOMAS-Double-Diaphragm-Vacuum-Pump-24VDC-70060058-M42x40-new-/281368691704?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item4182e183f8

Steve
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Jim Eh.
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2014, 09:47:59 AM »

That's a nice looking unit. And the upside is that even if the motor is not running, you still have vacuum assisted brakes. The downside is electrical gremlins live everywhere!

Tapping into the power steering system may require a relief valve. Now if you use a ton of hydraulic pressure for your brake system, how much "power" will that take away from the steering system? Plus more connections/hoses to leak.
I seem to remember some heavy vehicles end up with very heavy steering when you have your foot hard on the brake and you are trying to turn the wheel while stationary. Also most hydro boost systems on heavy vehicles have an electric back up so that if a leak develops you still have brake assist.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 09:54:14 AM by krank » Logged

Jim Eh.
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2014, 11:09:28 AM »

   If this is for a hydraulic clutch, why do you need a brake booster? Just a master cylinder and appropriately sized slave cylinder. Find assys off a medium duty truck. Volvo uses hydraulic clutches on their heavy duty models.
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bevans6
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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2014, 12:25:59 PM »

So far the math on volume leverage and pedal ratios says if I don't get a boost the pedal effort stays about the same as I have right now, mechaical like it is or hydraulic like a modern truck.  Right now the pedal effort is about 65 lbs to push, straight down, and that is the problem for my knee.  65 lbs push doesn't seem like a lot, but another way to think of it is lifting half my body weight on that leg with my foot out in front of my body mass and my knee at right angles.  It's hard!  by changing the pedal to one that hangs down from the dash the push becomes more forward than straight down, and the boost will reduce the push to around 30 lbs.

With mechanical systems like this you get a certain amount of throw-out bearing movement from a certain amount of pedal movement.  Changing the linkage from mechanical to hydraulic lets to play with leverages far more easily, but at the end of the day the only way to reduce the force is to increase the leverage.  The throw-out bearing movement isn't going to change so the pedal movement would have to increase to reduce the pressure.  The pedal throw is actually 7 to 8" now, and my knee sometimes hits the steering wheel, so there is no room for more movement.

I've designed a number of hydraulic clutch and brake systems for race cars from scratch, and I spent a fair amount of time looking for a free lunch on this one and haven't come up with one.   The booster idea is pretty damn close to a free lunch, doubles the pressure with no increase in pedal movement.  There's lots of other ways to reduce pedal effort inside the clutch itself, in the spring and finger design, and I have no doubt that the modern trucks take advantage of that newer technology. 

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
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Tony LEE
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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2014, 05:42:11 PM »

Could also use a standard pump such as are fitted to 2000 model F350 diesel trucks and power it via a dedicated 24V to 12V converter.  This would mean you would have the pump, pressure switch and accumulator all in one unit.
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2014, 07:39:57 AM »

Freightliner trucks also use hydraulic clutch linkage.
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 05:40:15 PM »

Why would you use vacumn when you already have air pressure?

Vacumn systems are used only where there is no air press system available? A vac system is actually an air system anyway except it uses atmospheric pressure instead of an air tank.

They both push which is what you want.

The hyd part doesn't care what is pushing.
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Jim Eh.
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 06:18:59 PM »

  If this is for a hydraulic clutch, why do you need a brake booster? Just a master cylinder and appropriately sized slave cylinder. Find assys off a medium duty truck. Volvo uses hydraulic clutches on their heavy duty models.

Duh ... posting at work, while thinking of the jobs at hand don't mix.
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Jim Eh.
1996 MC12
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Winnipeg, MB.
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