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Author Topic: HELP, Phil Lyons stuck on the road  (Read 4176 times)
Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
1989, MCI 102C3, 8V92T, HT740, 06' conversion FMCA# F-27317-S "Wife- 1969 Italian/German Style"
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« on: December 28, 2006, 09:11:43 AM »

Phil can't get the 6v92 restarted . The high temp and oil light are on but, temp is normal and oil is full.

The engine cranks then stalls out..

highway 20 west , 80 mi east of Avilene, TX

Call Phil's cell phone at  630-204-2868

Thanks All

Nick-
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Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
1989, MCI 102C3, 8V92T, HT740, 06' conversion FMCA# F-27317-S "Wife- 1969 Italian/German Style"
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2006, 09:26:13 PM »

Thanks for the phone calls to Phil Lyons Members!

He's back up and running

Nick-
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2006, 10:26:19 PM »

So what was it?  You can't keep us in suspense like that!
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Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2006, 04:57:17 AM »

Jim,

So far it sounds like a faulty hi temp sensor or a air pocket??

Not sure yet but, it restarted and he is under way.

Nick-
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« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2006, 06:07:57 AM »

Man, I just gotta chime in and say this board is the coolest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No kiddin!!!!! This is the epitomy of fantastic- Wonderful, helpful people and the internet.

   Ya just gotta love it,
        Chaz
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« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2006, 06:28:28 AM »

I totally agree Chaz. I probably would still  be in Palm Springs without the help of this BOARD!


Happy Trails,

Paul

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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2006, 07:08:55 AM »

I'm feeling bad I did not see the help note until a day later, and the problem was fixed. I guess I need to have a "Hot button" that emails me when someone needs help.  This is a cool BB. Thanks to Phill and his friends that keep it going.
mak
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2006, 07:09:56 AM »

Hi folks,

Sorry for the delay in response.  My Verizon Wireless has been giving me some trouble in connecting via the net.  

I really don't know what caused the problem.  The symptom was exactly the same as after we had the coolant flushed a couple of years ago and the mechanic didn't get rid of / bleed all the air pockets out of the system.  The bus warning lights came on, I had 2 -3 seconds to pull off the road before the engine died.  Wait 15 minutes.  The engine started right up.  

Same thing this time.  Except that when it died, we were on a steep grade.  Not much momentum to get off to the side of the road.  Almost got hit by a semi when we first pulled off.  He was riding part-way in the shoulder.  He swerved with his trailer barely missing the end of the bus.  Anyways, I put out the 3 triangles, etc,.  and called Nick.  It is sooo good to have such great friends through our network of busnuts.  

Oil level, coolant level, etc. all good.  New batteries.  Full of fuel.  Engine temp looked good.  

Any other suggestions would be deeply appreciated as it is really scary having the engine cut off like that.  Of course, if it was just an air pocket there is not much I can do about that I suppose.  We had all the coolant hoses replaced 1700 miles ago.  My next stop by the shop I'll have the sensors replaced.  

We are now safely in San Angelo visiting family.  All systems running fine.  Last 250 miles no problems.

Thanks again,  Kind Regards, Phil

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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2006, 07:57:16 AM »

Phil,

We had a fire engine just quit on the way to a fire last Saturday.  It was going up a steep grade.  The engine temp was cold (just started a mile earlier).  The oil pressure was good.  We have a bypass switch for our auto-shut down devices.  The operator tripped that and brought it back to the station.  (The fire was put out by the next engine).  It is in the shop now.  Usually the mechanics can't dupicate the symptoms once at the shop.  We were lucky this time.  It did the same thing for the mechanic on flat ground too.

I'll talk to the mechanic this morning and give you an update.

Glad to hear you are safe and on the road again.


Dave T.
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2006, 08:00:57 AM »

Well, I know that this is a long shot but this really happened to me.  My MC5A was cutting out frequently but powering back up within 10 to 15 seconds as a rule, and put me to the side of the road twice, but would restart after a short time.

Of course I thought of all the usual things that it could be, to no avail.

One day I was back there tightening the fan belt when I noticed the little chain hanging down from the oil fill cap on the rocker cover was just hanging there, the end was not attached anywhere! It was just long enough that it was interminably shorting out the engine by touching the over temp lead wire, and the couple of times that put me alongside the road it must have just hung up there longer.   

I attached it so it was out of the way, and wouldn't loose it if I forgot to put back on, and everything has been fine since.  stupid Huh?


Ed
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2006, 12:04:19 PM »

Phil,

I just talked to the mechanic who fixed our fire engine.  He found a faulty oil pressure sensor.  He said it was leaking as well.  Replaced it and we're back in business.  He also said that the coolant sensor was leaking, but still functioning.  Replaced it anyway.

Dave T.
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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2006, 05:31:07 PM »

phil, I had all these little things shutting me down every now and again. I've driven truck all my life and the only times I ever needed a computer to shut me down I don't remember. I've never destroyed an engine yet. I took my coach to DD and they used the hand held to turn my computer shut down off. It took 5 min. smartest thing I've done. I still get a warning light and can read my codes. all I need is a warning light, then I will decide where I will pull over, not the ddec. I also have a lot more faith in my coach always comming home now and I really believe my unit runs better. while your at DD also have them set your droop for the full 150 rpm also as it gives you another 5 mph and you can pass without getting hung out. they have never charged me for using the hand held.
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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2006, 05:15:40 PM »

Thanks for all the suggestions guys!

Well, the engine cut out 2 or 3 more times.    Once while idling in a parking lot after running for 45 minutes or so, another time on a turnpike. 

The only consistent thing I could see was that the bus did not cut out while the coach heater was off.  All the other 3 or 4 times it cut out, the coach heat was on.  Maybe something weird there with the coolant which flows through the MCI coach heat?

As I don't want to go through this again, I am taking the bus in to either DD or the "Vehicle Clinic" in Detroit (MAK advertiser). 

This is  a non-ddec, so I'm guessing no computer shut down - should have mentioned that before.  Smiley  No loose chains that I was able to spot - thanks Ed.  Dave, Thanks for the suggestion on the oil pressure sensor.  I'll see if I can check that out myself - I may have more questions on that.  Likewise for the coolant sensors.


Kind Regards to all - Phil




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Northern Arizona / 1983 - MC9
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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2006, 05:30:07 PM »

HAY Phil,

This may be too late, but before you go to the expense of taking it to DD or anywhere, (mainly because having someone find an intermittent problem can be very expensive and a lot unsatisfying in the results department.), try the ASE suggested test to find the problem.

It's called the wiggle test.

With the engine running, and all parameters as close to the same as when you had the problem earlier, grab a hand full of wires and wiggle, bend, jerk, pull and push on them. If the engine doesn't die, go on to a different bunch of wires and repeat. Do this until you eliminate all the wires. Now go back and do it again, trying smaller bunches of wires, especially close to any sending units or sensors.

You can also do this test at the drivers seat area.

Good Luck,
Dallas
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« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2007, 05:50:03 AM »

Not too late!  I will give that a shot.  Thanks Dallas.   Grin

Kind Regards, Phil
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« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2007, 08:44:09 AM »

Take the wire off the low oil sender and high water temperature sender and wrap tape around the end of the wire. You will be closely watching your gauges anyway when you have a problem.  If this solves the problem, you know that you have a faulty sender or a wire that is touching ground.

Another likely souce of problem is the shut down solenoid that operates the air cylinder on top of the governor. It has to have voltage at all times to keep the engine running. There are a lot of wires, terminals, diodes, relays etc involved in this circuit but you can connect 24 volts directly to the solenoid for a test run. You will have to remove the 24 volts to shut down the engine. If this solves the problem, you will have to go through the entire shut down circuit to locate the intermiitent.  In some coaches, careless washing over the years has caused a lot of corrosion in the rear terminal box. The wiggle test suggested by Dallas is good because it is not uncommon to have a wire broken inside a harness without any obvious damage.
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« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2007, 10:44:05 AM »

phil,If i remember right my old coach with an 8V71 was electric over air on the shutdown. Can't remember weather to pull the electrical wire and let it hang loose to come home or to just shut the air off to the switch. I'm sure that turning the air off to the switch will work though if you can't turn it off with the switch until you have air pressure. 
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« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2007, 05:27:44 PM »

Phil,

Pull the covers off the defroster area and bleed the air out of the defroster circuit at the top of the coils. I wonder if that was done after the hoses were all changed?

You heating system could be pushing air bubbles from the defroster and back into the engine since both are higher than the lines that feed the system.

Just a thought.... Hmmmmm.... Undecided
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« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2007, 07:14:52 PM »

Phil, do you have a "shutdown" device on the coach?  What Stan suggests may disable the unit, but some MUIs had a complicated system that monitored several parameters and would shut the engine down if any were outside normal limits. 
I'd disable such a device and install alarmastats.  At least you'd have the option of getting off the railroad tracks. 
Seems like "Robertshaw" made these things....is your coach an ex NJT or some other transit?  NJTs had an MUI shutdown on them. 
Stan can advise, but it may be possible to lock the shutdown cylinder in the "Run" position so as to disable the shutdown module? 
Craig (Gumpydog) has some history with an MUI  shutdown system that was acting up. 
As Dallas sez, be very careful taking intermittant problems to a shop.  You will pay for the time they spend looking for your problem....fixed or otherwise. 
IMHO air in the coolant system would not cause what you describe...it should be bled, but you shouldn't have enough air in the system that would allow a shutdown after hours of normal use...or a shutdown in a parking lot while idling.    Have you cracked the engine bleeder valve on the crossover between the thermostat housings?  You could rule out air in the engine right there.   As long as you get solid water?? 
Glad to hear you are back on the road!
Good Luck, JR



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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2007, 05:40:31 AM »

phil: I should have mentioned that you probably have two high water temperature senders, one on each side. On one side there are two that look the same. One is the sender for the temperature gauge and the other one is a high temperaure switch. The shut down sender should measure infinite resistance while the temperature gauge sender will show relatively low resistance.
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« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2007, 06:20:26 AM »

Thanks for the additional assistance.  Also, thanks to Charlie who gave me a call yesterday.   Smiley

Yes, this is an ex-NJT.   Things ran fine with the defroster on the whole trip.  I turned off the coach heat, and left the defroster running - with that combination, no shutdowns.

I've still yet to use the "move wires around" technique - but I will give that a go this weekend.  Looking for shorts between my sending units.  Also, I will post a picture of the sending units, and any shutdowns I can find. 

Thanks again - you guys are the best!!!!!

Kind Regards to all - and a blessed new year!

Phil
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« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2007, 10:21:34 AM »

MCI Types,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to hold the start switch in if you have an undesired auto shutdown, in order to "get off the RR tracks"?  (I like that phrase, very appropriate)  When I was on a check ride for a local charter in an MC8, it happened to me, and if I remember correctly, (that's an iffy prospect), the instructor did that until we could go a little further to add water.  That was years ago, and I don't know if it's a common feature on these buses.  Anyone??     
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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2007, 01:59:45 PM »

On all the older MCIs the shutdown over ride was an option. At some point they may have made it standard. I believe up to the MC-7 it was a spring return switch, with  a red flip-up cover over it, that you had to hold down to restart the engine and to keep it running. On the MC- 8 they used the'hold the key on method' with a fuel pressure switch to keep the starter from staying engaged.

RJ or BusWarrior probably have all the details.
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« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2007, 04:23:05 PM »

Hello

The MCI auto shut-down system on this vintage of coach may be by-passed by holding in the starter button. The engine will continue to run as long as the starter button is held in, (which will turn the end of whichever digit you are using purple and remove all feeling for the next while) and the pressure switch in the fuel system will take care of disengaging the starter.

I would be a strong supporter of removing the shut-down system, leaving all the instrument panel warning lights and sensors intact - alarmstats etc. Remove the system correctly, do not just cut wires to sensors!!!!

You own the bus, you will not keep driving it if the hot engine, or low oil pressure warning comes on, BUT... you want to choose the stopping place, not have the engine just turn off at that moment.

As the coach ages and develops ghosts and other electrical gremlins, having the auto shut down removed gets rid of one more variable to trouble shooting, and removes more failure points.

The shut down system was invented to protect the motor from stupid hired drivers who would keep driving the bus until the engine seized or blew up. No vested interest beyond their final pay cheque. That is definetiely NOT the mindset of any busnut I know!

Hmmm... has anyone else disconnected one of these systems and can provide the dirty details? Mine was not equipped, as the original purchasing fleet paid their drivers well, and trusted them to do the right thing when the warning lights came on.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2007, 05:43:08 PM »

phil, I fought a problem like yours with my 89 eagle, NJT. It is a ddec motor and I'm suprised yours is not. I was also on a steep uphill grade when I first had the shutdown. Fought it for a couple hundred miles. Everything looked good. oil, water,etc. Every time I got on a grade it shut down. I finally decided to put some extra oil in it since it was 2 quarts low maybe. That fixed it. I think the low oil shutdown must be at the drivers end of the engine. made me mad took it to DD and had them unprogram the shutdown feature. Now it goes like jack the bear!
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Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2007, 06:33:52 PM »

my 89 eagle, NJT. It is a ddec motor and I'm suprised yours is not. I was also on a steep uphill grade when I first had the shutdown. !

DDEC was introduced on NJT MC9s in 1987.  DDEC 1 was used on 87 '9s.   Most '88s and all '89s had DDEC II .   NJT Eagles have wiring similar to NJT MC9s.   These are different Eagles.
Best, JR   
 
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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2007, 10:40:01 PM »

I bypassed my GMC's MUI over-ride for the very reasons Buswarrior suggests. Mine acted up once and now it's gone. It was a fairly simple affair of removing power to the shutdown relay and using that wire to power something else, IIRC. A few hours of probing and keeping my head in Da Book did it (and I'm fairly slow with these things). My tell-tales still work and shoud alert me to shut it down when and if it's needed... if I somehow forget to look at my gauges.

My reasoning was it could be more dangerous to have the engine cut out unexpectedly than to baby it someplace safe, even if "over-temped" and/or "under-oiled." And nuisance-tripping like mine (and Phil's) is just askin' for a roadside disaster.

Glad you got her home, Phil!

My $0.02,
Brian B.
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2007, 06:52:02 AM »

No question - it was DANGEROUS when it cut unexpectedly on the uphill grade, curve.  From our post earlier in this thread - we were almost nailed by a semi driving at high speed half-way on the shoulder where we had just pulled into!  Missed our bus tail end by just a few inches.   Shocked

Brian, what are your tell-tales?  I'm assuming you mean  the mechanical temp guage & oil pressure guage?  Maybe the warning buzzers?  Or do you have something additional?

Best Regards,  Phil
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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2007, 08:43:32 AM »

Gads, Phil, I DID miss that part about your mishaps. Sooo glad it wasn't worse. Wow.

"Tell-tales" are the lights on top of my dash that warn about low oil pressure, high coolant temp, etc (pic below). These and the gauges are on totally separate senders, and neither were affected by removing the shutdown relay from the equation. IIRC, the relay senses grounds from the Alarmastats that run the tell-tales, and something in the old relay was sending the false positive to pull the shutoff solenoid. Probably just some bad contacts, but I don't really think I want that thing determining my engine condition.

It might not help you, since mine's GMC, but I'm also attaching a shot of my shutdown relay (now bypassed).

HTH,
Brian B.
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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2007, 09:06:59 AM »

We can thank the declining quality of commercial drivers for the advent of all the shut down devices.  Pretty much, companies want a vehicle that does all the thinking for the driver.  With practically all buses and a big chunk of big rigs with some sort of automated transmissions, basically they want the driver to push the go and stop pedal and steer-that's it!  So for the most of us that are VERY aware of our buses blood pressure and temperature, I think that auto shut down is for the birds.  Personally don't have them (except of course on the generator that basically runs without attention), but do have a good loud buzzer for low oil.  When the oil filter broke on my bus shortly after the get together in Rickreall, Or in '05 on California 299 (not a good road for a bus-very scenic-but a pain to drive-would be great in a sports car or motorcycle) I heard the buzzer, looked down and saw the oil light on and immediately shut down the engine-worried about where to stop after the shut down-and just happened to have a turn out on the left side of the road that I coasted to.

Personally speaking, I would defeat all shut downs if I had them, just like Brian did.  One other point, shut downs on trucks are good for those that idle their trucks all night-although that is going away also, because of smog emissions (personally never understood idling a 500hp engine to run a 10hp A/C compressor).  My old truck didn't have shut downs, neither did any truck before electronics-and mysteriously we got the job done anyway. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2007, 09:27:11 AM »

I agree with what Tom said.
We have a small truck driving school just up the road from us and they will make you a "Qualified Truck Driver" in 3 weeks.
I spoke with the master instructor at the school and found out that he has a grand total of 8 months Experience as an over the road driver.

When We had our trucking company, we would have school drivers come in that knew nothing about maps, routes, logging, loading, unloading, strapping, tyeing down or chaining. But they were "Qualified Truck Drivers." Most of them couldn't be depended on to shift the transmission the same way twice.

As an example, I took a new driver for his road test in Spokane, Wa. There is a main road, I believe is Division Ave that runs north toward northern Idaho.
In the middle of this test, we came to a very short, very steep hill, and the new driver screwed up the down shift so badly I had to have him set the brakes and then swap places with him.
When we got back to the yard I asked if if he knew how to double clutch and his answer was, "You can't fool me, I know that other pedal is the brake!"

Obviously, I didn't hire him.

Most of the time, we call these drivers, "Warm Bodies" because that is exactly what they are behind the wheel.

Dallas
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« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2007, 09:32:48 AM »

Hey Phil,

I'm glad you got to where you were going....The guys at The Vehicle Clinic are great (Amos Slater) spends most of his time at his FL branch, but he has a great core of guys. If you come to Nashville a couple of my good friends are (20+) yr Covington Detroit Diesel mechanics...........man they are good.

Rich
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« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2007, 08:42:04 PM »

HAY Phil,

This may be too late, but before you go to the expense of taking it to DD or anywhere, (mainly because having someone find an intermittent problem can be very expensive and a lot unsatisfying in the results department.), try the ASE suggested test to find the problem.

It's called the wiggle test.

With the engine running, and all parameters as close to the same as when you had the problem earlier, grab a hand full of wires and wiggle, bend, jerk, pull and push on them. If the engine doesn't die, go on to a different bunch of wires and repeat. Do this until you eliminate all the wires. Now go back and do it again, trying smaller bunches of wires, especially close to any sending units or sensors.

You can also do this test at the drivers seat area.

Good Luck,
Dallas

Hi all,

I did the wiggle test, bend, pull, push, from the 3 (?) temp sensors which lead to the wiring block between the engine/transmission mounted on the frame.  I didn't bother with the wire leading to the mechanical guage in the engine compartment.  Not sure about that one.

Could not get the engine to cut out. 

The bus goes to Amos' shop in Detroit - Vehicle clinic -  this Monday for its rebuild, along with the seals on the transmission.  Also going to have them try to coax a few more horses out of this engine setup.  I've been planning this for a while, but along with the rebuild, I will mention that we do have a problem with the engine cutting out once in a while. 

Was there another test I could try for the oil sending unit?  I foggily remember something about that.

Thanks again - Phil






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plyonsMC9
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« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2007, 09:48:27 PM »

And, here are the pix of what I believe to be my temp sensors - - I'm including them as I've only been able to find these so far, and don't want to be missing anything.  I don't have an exact match yet either for the manuals ( da book ) for my bus yet, so it gets a little more challenging along these lines.

Thanks again - Phil
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2007, 07:05:07 AM »

The second pictuture shows the sender for the rear mecahanical temperature guage in the botton of the housing. Of the two senders on the top of the housing, one is the sender for the front eletrical temperature guage and one is a high temperature switch which either turns on the high temp light at the dash and/or shuts down the engine. The sender circled in the top picture should be the high termperature switch on the other head with the same functions as the first one.

To find out which is which, take the wire off the sender and use an ohmeter to ground (the brass part of the sender). On a cold engine the high temperature switches shoud be open (infinite resistance) and the gusge sender should have a relatively low resistance but not zero resistance to ground.

Before you put the wires back on, turn on your switch (don't start engine) and one at a time  connect the wires to ground. You should get the high temperature alarm light with one or both of the high temp senders and one or both should make the shutdown solenoid click. The guage sender will make the guage hit the pin at 0 or full scale (opposite to where it is when the wire is not connected.
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2007, 05:37:36 PM »

Stan, that is fascinating information.  Thank you for sharing your knowledge.  I will do some more checking to find out which is which.

Kind Regards, Phil
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