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Author Topic: Will a Series 60 from a truck fit a coach?  (Read 2814 times)
belfert
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« on: January 06, 2007, 12:13:58 AM »

My Dina has a Series 60 from the factory.  Will a Series 60 from a truck fit into a coach, or is stuff like the oil pan different?

I don't need a new engine right now, but if I ever run into a good deal on an engine I might buy a spare.

Brian Elfert
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Sammy
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2007, 04:33:38 AM »

Brian, the Series 60 was manufactured for many different applications - trucks,buses,generators,marine,offf highway equiptment,etc.
They  were manufactured with different displacements - 11.1 litre,12.7 litre,and 14 litres.They had DDEC I, DDEC II,DDEC III/IV electronics.They were manufactured as a natural gas engine too.
Oil pan, bellhousing,gearcase,water pump are only a few of the differences you may find.
Hope this may help you.
Sammy  Cool


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gumpy
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2007, 05:20:04 AM »

I think you should just buy a spare Dina. Probably cheaper than just buying the engiine and you'll get lots of extra parts, including the engine.


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Craig Shepard
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belfert
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2007, 07:02:10 AM »

I am aware of the various displacements and DDECs.  I certainly need to have a DDEC III or maybe a IV.  I've read some stuff that a DDEC IV can replace a DDEC III.  I was aware that maybe the oil pans would be different, but wasn't aware the bell housing and gearcase could be different.  I would only plan on getting a highway engine, not an off-road/marine engine. 

My current engine runs, but it is developing all kinds of leaks.  I have two or three minor oil leaks and just developed a coolant leak from the engine.  Not sure if the coolant is coming from the water pump or oil cooler yet.  I'll look at it closer when spring comes.

I believe all the leaks are the result of the bus pretty much sitting idle for three years at the dealer.  (Didn't know this when I bought it.)  I'm thinking I might end up just pulling the engine and replacing all the various seals and other maintainance items like the water pump.  It would be a lot easier to do out of the bus.

I'm not actively looking for another engine, but if I found a Series 60 with low miles cheap I might buy it, especially if a 12.7.  (Dina installed 400 HP 12.7s starting in 1997 or 1998 as 11.1s were discontinued.)

Brian Elfert
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belfert
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2007, 07:07:02 AM »

Gumpy, the only Dina salvage bus I've seen for sale was well over $20,000.  I don't have the space nor the money for that.  I should be able to get an engine for quite a bit less.

US Coach has two salvage Dinas they are parting out, but the parts aren't cheap.  I don't blame them since used parts for a Dina are so rare, and some of the body parts aren't available new.

Brian Elfert
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gumpy
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2007, 07:46:11 AM »

Water leaks in MN this time of year are typically cold water leaks. Tighten the clamps.

BTDT every year.


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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2007, 07:48:27 AM »

Brian, I am not an expert on Series 60 interchanges, but I am pretty darn sure that you can exchange all of the parts off of your Series 60 onto a donor engine. That would include unique parts like exhaust and intake manifolds, crank pulley, shallow pan/pickup/dip sick, engine mounts, etc. I would guess all of these things and some other parts are unique to your application. I am pretty sure that parts for the same displacement engine (11.1, 12.7, 14) would interchange within the same displacement and probably across displacement.

I used a truck donor engine and just adapted as needed. I did have to get a shallow pan and all of the associated parts.

The big issue will be the DDEC system. I think I recall that you have a DDEC 2. The connectors for DDEC 2 are different from later versions. There is a conversion kit from DD that will let your harness connect to a later version ECM. I don't think you would want to use your ECM on a later engine (doubt it would work). You would have to go with the ECM with the donor engine and probably have to have DD turn on the data communication for your transmission (SAE 1922?).
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
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belfert
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2007, 08:02:10 AM »

Water leaks in MN this time of year are typically cold water leaks. Tighten the clamps.

BTDT every year.

Checked all the clamps and hoses in the area and they are tight.  The leak appears to be coming from higher up on the engine.  It really isn't a huge deal as the bus is still driveable, but it is something I need to fix in the spring.

I am really getting sick of one minor leak after another and would like to just replace all the seals and gaskets that routinely fail.  I will hopefully drive the bus enough that the seals don't all dry out again.

Jim, I have a DDEC III so I'm set there.  The DDEC might need to be programmed for the tranny, but that should be all.

Brian Elfert
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2007, 08:21:06 AM »

Brian, the fact that you have DDEC 3 is great.  That gives you the option of using your ECM. 

Some of the DDEC 3 ECMs could not be programed to activate SAE J1922 and SAE J1939 communication ports.  I needed J1939 for my autoshift.  I watched them try to re-program my ECM (after approval from DD mainframe) and they could not get it to activate.  Finally had to upgrade to a DDEC 4 ECM (drop in conversion).  If your ECM has a reasonable rating, that might be the best option when the time comes.  If the truck is set for more power, then you would want to use it and hope they can activate the data port you need.  BTW, activation of the data ports must be done by DD for some reason (can't be done with Pro-Link).

If the leaks are coming from one or more of the hoses, that is probably a function of the use of silicone hoses.  They are great from a durability standpoint, but seem to be prone to leaking around the interface with the nipple.  Converting to premium rubber hose will still give you good life and will solve the leaking problem.
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2007, 09:05:41 AM »

The 11.1 and 12.7 are identical except for crankshaft and connecting rods.  14.0 has a different bore and stroke, the front gear train is narrower than the other two, but all have the same external foot print that would allow you to use any of the engines just by changing the bolt on accessories too accommodate your particular application.  On a bus the main difference is the low profile oil pan.

Personally- if you are having leaking problems, and if you have some engine rebuilding experience, the Series 60 is a simple engine compared to the two strokers.  If you have a place to do it during winter, pull the engine and take it apart, replace what is worn out and reassemble it.  There are a couple of tricks you need to know, maybe a few special tools, but not anymore than a standard Diesel rebuilder would know.  Then you'd have an engine that is leak free, newly rebuilt for the next 1million miles.

As compared to the two strokers-like the 71 series-you have to know how to fit the dry cylinder liners, set the clearances on the blower, check clearances on the gear train, make sure it is timed correctly (Series 60 has only one timing), know how to set the gaskets (this is why a lot of 2 strokers leak), set the valves, set the height on the injectors, time the injectors, set the clearance on the injectors, properly adjust the injection rack for smooth operation, set up the governor-to name a few.  On the Series 60, you have to know how to install the wet cylinder liners (typically using veggy oil to slip them in), adjust the clearances on the valves (not hard) and just in general careful installation methods that you follow with any engine.  Go for it!  Have a Diesel mechanic inspect the engine at various stages of re-build for your piece of mind-will be the cheapest in the long run-and, at least for me, would be fun to do.  Good Luck, TomC

 
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
belfert
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2007, 09:19:06 AM »

The 11.1 and 12.7 are identical except for crankshaft and connecting rods. 14.0 has a different bore and stroke, the front gear train is narrower than the other two, but all have the same external foot print that would allow you to use any of the engines just by changing the bolt on accessories too accommodate your particular application. On a bus the main difference is the low profile oil pan.

Personally- if you are having leaking problems, and if you have some engine rebuilding experience, the Series 60 is a simple engine compared to the two strokers. If you have a place to do it during winter, pull the engine and take it apart, replace what is worn out and reassemble it. There are a couple of tricks you need to know, maybe a few special tools, but not anymore than a standard Diesel rebuilder would know. Then you'd have an engine that is leak free, newly rebuilt for the next 1million miles.

I have zero engine rebuilding experience.  I'm just looking to replace seals that are pretty much external that leak like the water pump, oil cooler, and oil filter block.  My friend who used to be a mechanic would help me.  These can be done with engine in place, but pulling engine would make it much easier.

I would love a rebuilt engine, but I don't think my friend would have that much time and I certainly wouldn't tackle that by myself.  If I did a rebuild I would try to find a 12.7 to replace the 11.1 with.

Brian Elfert
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TomC
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2007, 09:26:33 AM »

Brian- you can get as much as 430hp and 1450lb/ft torque out of the 11.1-which I think is more than enough.  Replacing the leaking gaskets on your exsisting engine will be your least expensive or headache producing way to go.

On my bus, just the turboing job I've done, I've had to have my radiator core enlarged, install an air to air intercooler that was custom made to my specifications, now am finishing changing the air cleaner and intake stack to a larger size to facilitate the extra air flow.  And that's with keeping the same basic engine!  So changing an engine is alot more work than it seems.  Stay with your engine! Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
belfert
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2007, 09:48:10 AM »

Brian- you can get as much as 430hp and 1450lb/ft torque out of the 11.1-which I think is more than enough. Replacing the leaking gaskets on your exsisting engine will be your least expensive or headache producing way to go.

What has to be done on a Series 60 11.1L to get more power like to 400 HP?  I assume this is more than just a setting change in the DDEC.

I believe Dina used the same radiator, air intake, and intercooler when they went from the 11.1L 350 HP to the 12.7L 400 HP.  I need to call MCI about something else on Monday so I'll ask the Dina engineer there if they made any changes to accomodate the higher HP engine.

Brian Elfert
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tekebird
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2007, 11:06:05 AM »

I think you would be better served by putting the money you would invest into this spare motor  into a money market...and if the need arises you have the money.

storing a motor for an unknown amount of time, especially one that is worth some $$ like a S60 doesn't make much sence unless you are a revenue operation and would need a quick swap to pay your bills.

Also the likelyhood you would be at home when your engine grenades is slim....so then you need to pallet the thing and ship it to where you are.

Not to mention the deal engines you find never have a history with them.  So they are suspect until you rebuild them
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busguy01
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2007, 12:15:37 PM »

I seriously doubt that your 60 series needs a rebuild. They seem to go forever! I put a early 60 in my Eagle01. At the time it showed the equivilate of 800,000 miles on the computer. We changed the lower end bearings ($350) to be safe but they looked fine. A couple of years later we pulled the engine to fix a couple of oil leaks - one of witch required the head to be pulled. Replaced the cam bearing which did show some wear. The liners looked very good. I have put over 60,000 miles on it and it runs fine. Uses about 1 gal of oil every 3,000 miles! My advice is to located the leaks, pull the engine and fix them. Spend more time figureing out how to have fun with the bus and less time worring about the 60!!
JimH
Just my way -- your mileage may vary
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belfert
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2007, 03:29:46 PM »

I'm replying to the last two emails here:

I would only buy a spare engine if I found one for a really good price.  Like I said, I'm not actively looking for one.  If I did get one, I would probably rebuild it at some point and put it in place of mine.

I think Tom C. brought up the idea of rebuilding the engine as he suggested it isn't that hard.  I don't have any intentions to rebuild my engine any time soon.  I probably should pull the engine and replace all the external gaskets and seals like the oil filter adapter, oil cooler, and water pump along with anything else I see.

I was too concerned about the engine until recently.  I'm developing a new external leak on the engine almost every time I drive it now days.  Also, I smelled a strong burning smell from somewhere back in the engine area after my last drive.  I was dropping the bus off for windshields at C&J Bus Repair so I didn't investigate it too much.  Gauges looked good, but I'm guessing a belt is bad or something. 

I want to drive the bus, but I also don't want to be 1,000 miles from home and have a leak ruin the trip.  I want to be proactive and fix this stuff before it gets worse.

Brian Ellfert
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bobofthenorth
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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2007, 07:29:03 AM »

Tom has given you really good advice.  That S60 will run forever.  If you want to spend some money on it then it sounds like some cosmetic gasket replacement would be an option.  If you REALLY want to spend some money then you could consider a bearing roll-in.  Other than that, absent some serious indication that the engine is sick, there doesn't appear to be any good reason to replace it.  Pull an oil sample and have it analysed - that will tell you right away if there is any serious internal wear happening.  It will also confirm whether you are losing any coolant into the crankcase. 

At some point you may just have to tell yourself "its a diesel engine.  Its going to get dirty.  So wash it once in a while"

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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2007, 01:47:38 PM »

Rebuilts are available in the truck series from about $10k and up, from nationally advertized rebuilders, up to the most expensive = Detroit Diesel.

I pulled a 375/400 hp out of a '93 Freightliner that I bought for $5k - sold the 8V for $3.5k. It had about 500k miles - low for that engine. It was a DDEC II. I have put on a new bus oil pan, bus intake, two piece rocker cover, bus oil pick-up, all new seals, gaskets, upgraded to 500hp (cam, injectors, bull gear, DDEC IV ECM, etc.) as well as new main and rod bearings, Relibuilt water pump, air compressor, fuel pump, DDEC IV sensors, etc. Got a lot off eBay for less than dealer. I love to do that kind of work, it wasn't hard (dirty and heavy, yes), but for example to install the crank seals takes a $650 tool that no one loans or rents and I ended up buying it new from DD and selling on eBay for $550, so didn't save so much there. My time isn't saleable, my pride in ownership and craftsmanship is what I enjoy. Figuring the cost to purchase and all the parts and pieces, I've well over $10k invested.

And I didn't list all the parts to adapt to the B500 plus little parts - if you do it, good luck!
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Well no longer a bus nut, but over the years I learned a lot here and still come back to see what I can apply to the conversion of my KW T2000 for hauling my Teton fifth wheeler.
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