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Author Topic: 6v92 Antifreeze coming out of passenger side slobber tube?!  (Read 4383 times)
Brian Diehl
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« on: January 06, 2007, 09:42:49 AM »

Went out this morning and noticed antifreeze had filled up my passenger side slobber tube catch bucket.  What does it mean when antifreeze is coming out of the passenger side slobber tube?  I've last run the bus down to Virginia and back for Thanksgiving without issue.  It's been sitting without running ever since.  So, any ideas as to what is going on and how bad it is?  Thanks!


Should also add it is a 6v92ta in a 1985 96A3 with an HT754 tranny...
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luvrbus
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2007, 12:06:03 PM »

It sounds like you may have a liner oring leaking you can take your air box covers off and check each one,most of the time when a head gasket leaks it goes into the oil pan good luck
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2007, 02:38:36 PM »

I'll pull the air box covers tomorrow.
What would it mean if the oring is the source of the leak?
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luvrbus
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2007, 03:32:59 PM »

Brian,the head and oil pan will have to be removed to remove the liner if the liner is not pitted the parts will not cost much the orings are 8 bucks,head set 35.00 and oil pan gaskest 6.00  labor on a bus is what cost so much.
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2007, 02:18:46 PM »

Pulled the air box covers.  The middle cylinder on the passenger side of the bus is leaking.  The leak is on the upper part or the cylinder liner, i.e. above the ports.

So, if I have to pull the head, anything else I should be aware of?
Is there anything else I should do since I'll have the heads off?  I'm going to pull the driver side head as well if I do this since it has been leaking oil since I got it.

I'm going to go study my maintenance manuals for the 6v92 and see what I need to know before attacking this job.

How much do the following weigh?
   -- blower
   -- head

Thanks in advance.
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2007, 03:14:04 PM »

Does your blower have an issue?  The heads can be pulled without removing the blower and turbo...
I cannot say what a head weighs, but they have to be handled carefully and not set down on the flat side once off.  Get some wooden blocks or frame so that the heads rest on the blocks at the ends.   An automotive engine cherry picker will snatch the heads right out.
Take some pics and post once the unit is disassembled. 
Good luck with your project, JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2007, 03:44:10 PM »

Brian, you need a set of guides to put the heads back on with so you don't have to worry about the head seals moving you can make your own out of bolts or buy a set for 29.oo from monco tool co.make sure you pull the liner and piston out as one unit and you won't need to buy a set of rings.DD used 1 black oring and one red oring but changed to 2 red orings because the black oring gets hard and leaks.so if it were me and i had the black orings i would change all of the orings .above the ports are where the orings are in the engine.You can get parts for a good price from PC Industries in Afton WY they have a web site with a toll free number good luck on your repairs
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2007, 04:35:10 PM »

Can I really pull the heads without pulling the blower?  If so that is just great!

Since it sounds like the best thing is to replace all o-rings, I'll end up having all pistons and liners out of the block.

Should I have the liners honed and put in new rings?
Should I replace any bearings?  Do I need to do anything special with the crankshaft?  Should I replace crank shaft bearings while I have the heads off?  Finally, should I have a valve job done on the head at the same time?

This guide tool ... do you know what it is called and or its part number?

I'll call PC Industries and see what they can do for me.  Thanks for the tip!

Thanks again.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2007, 05:33:48 PM »

Brian, if your engine was running good and not smoking or using a lot of oil i would just fix your leaks if you put new rings you have to get a dd ring compressor or have somebody install the pistons back in the liners if you try to use anything else you break the oil rings i know i broke 3 sets out of 8 before i got wise make sure you don't mix the liners  and pistons put them back in the same cly they came from then you don't have to adjust the liner to the block.read your book and it will show the limits on wear on the bearings
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NJT5047
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2007, 07:02:57 PM »

Can I really pull the heads without pulling the blower? If so that is just great!

The heads can be removed without pulling the blower.    Clean the area between the heads and blower well before disassembly.
Whether or not to do an inframe depends on what the bearings look like after you have the one piston/cylinder assembly and rod pulled.  Did the bus hold good oil pressure?   The bearings are not expensive, but you'll have to be certain that you correctly fit new bearings if you change them.   The "O" rings are another issue.  I'd be tempted to replace all cyl "O" rings.  If one failed, the others may be right behind them.  As has already been covered, if you don't intend to do rings, don't pull the pistons out of the liners.
What to replace and what to leave is the sort of "judgement call" that brings Mr. Murphy out for a visit.   Huh   
Do you know the history of the engine?  The "O" rings may have been overheated  and damaged (or improperly installed...or just old and tired)...while the bearings and rings may be fine.  If it wasn't smoking when hot, had 15 or 20 lbs of idling oil pressure when hot, and cranked good cold...an in-frame may be overkill.   
Do you have any rear engine (flywheel "rear") oil leaks?  A high milage DD will leak oil at the rear main.  If the rear main is leaking, you may find it much easier to pull the cradle, and work on the engine out of the coach.  The rear main could then be replaced.   The cradle with engine/trans and all the filters and coolers is easy to remove.   
You cannot remove the oil pan with the engine on a dolly, but a dolly sure makes removing it easy.   The oil pan is easy to remove in the bus, but working on the heads is a PITA.  You'll be standing (squatting) on the muffler heat shield on the drivers side...that's gonna be fun.  The pax side head will be easy enough to remove in the coach.  Every time you bump the upper engine compartment, dirt will fall into the engine.  Steam cleaning the whole area may help.   
You could set the cradle on cribbing, or build a dolly that would fit the cradle rails which would allow access to the lower engine.    Should you decide to pull the engine and use the cradle as a stand, be sure that the cradle is well supported under the area where the motormounts are welded to the cradle. 
If you pull the engine, that would be a good time to replace all the rivets that are probably missing in the engine overhead panels. 
There is a bit of skill involved in doing the work you are diving into.  You may be a mechanic sort..but if not, get some experienced assistance.  DD 2 strokes, contrary to popular opinion, are not simple things to repair.   You'll see what I mean when you read the service manual. 
Sorry about the long windedness....nothing going on you know.   Wink
Good luck, JR  Cool










   
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2007, 10:08:38 PM »

Brian, If your engine has leaked any antifreze into the pan and been ran it will ruin the mains and rods. You can tell by looking at them. this may have been an ongoing problem. On a cummins for some reason the cam bearings usually survive, don't know about a DD yet. It may be cheaper to grab one of those internet engines that are majored for 4 grand. You could keep this engine in service in warm weather by just running water and lots of rust inhibitor. When the oil turns white change it!
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2007, 08:01:11 AM »

Thanks for the feedback guys,

Basically, the engine started reliably down to about 45 degrees and then below that would need a crank, pause, crank, pause, start session to start until about 25.  At 25 some sort of starting aid was needed.  I have a block heater and webasto so haven't tried to start in real cold weather without heat for a long time.

The engine had about 70lbs of pressure at road speed and about 20lbs of pressure at idle.

About 2 years ago I had a mechanic do a pressure check when he checked all my injectors.  I had 4 cylinders about even, one low (20 psi lower than the 4) and one high (about 15psi higher than the other 4) pressure.  I don't remember the exact readings anymore....(I forgot to write it down).

So, sounds like pulling the heads and the one bad cylinder liner is the first step. 

I read the manual and I must admit it is very intimidating.  If I only have to do the one liner and put the heads back on that part of the process did not scare me at all.  However, as soon as I got into checking bearings, rods, crankshaft, cylinder roundout, etc I got nervous.  I would need to buy a lot of tools to be able to do all the measurements listed.  I'm hoping I don't need to replace any liners .... 

The book mentions using a tool to pull the liners.  Will I have problems getting the liners out without the tool and with the pistons still in the liners?
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luvrbus
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2007, 08:08:09 AM »

Brian go to the Monco tool web site and you can get the guides a puller the have a toll free number
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2007, 08:34:08 AM »

a google search for monco tool does not yield any results.....
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belfert
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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2007, 09:03:40 AM »

Brian, Didn't you mention on another thread that you want to repower?  Maybe now is a good time to do so since you might be investing a fair bit of money and time in this motor.

Brian Elfert
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2007, 09:12:02 AM »

Brian E. yeah I've been contemplating a repower for a while... I'm still trying to figure out how much fixing my existing engine is going to cost ... Could only cost me a couple hundred dollars to do it myself ... though still need to find someone to come out and set the injectors, valves, rack etc (tuneup) after I put it back together before I can start it. 

I'm contemplating a Cummins ISL350 or ISL400.  So far my research leads me to believe it will fit and the ECU would have no problem with a mechanical automatic transmission.  I'm still trying to find one though... haven't found a single used ISL to even begin to get a price on it.
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belfert
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« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2007, 09:15:35 AM »

Why not a Cummins M11 or M11+?  Van Hool has used these for a number of years and I believe still uses them.  The M11 isn't supposed to be as tall as some of the others like a Series 50/60.

Brian Elfert
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luvrbus
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2007, 09:27:40 AM »

brian i missed spelled the name it monaco tool sorry
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2007, 09:47:09 AM »

Why not a Cummins M11 or M11+?  Brian Elfert

The M11 is too long... Won't fit ... The ISL is 43" long and should fit with the initial research I've done.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 10:23:30 AM by Brian Diehl » Logged
Busnut83
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« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2007, 11:15:45 AM »

What is a slobber tube???

      thanks
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« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2007, 04:05:34 PM »

Hello Brian

How much coolant is in the oil?

You might get lucky, all depends on how much coolant has been pretending to be lubrication.

If you are thinking re-power, now might be the time.

If you open up that motor, you risk keeping it and going to spend a ton - oh - cash on it.

If you leave it alone, it has some value in it's present condition, still able to run, known internal leak, not messed with. No one wants a bunch of parts some guy took apart.

Do some asking around and see what horse trading you might be able to do.

Find a DD mechanic that wants to come out on the weekend and make some cash direct from you.
Find a motor and someone who can make a buck off yours.

Remember, the guy who fixes the motor makes the buck, you are trying to cut your losses.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2007, 04:53:52 PM »

Brian, you need a tool to remove the cylinder liners. The proper tool locks into the ports of the liner and removes the piston and liner in one unit after you have removed the rod cap. It locks into the liner above the piston and then you bar the engine over and the liner comes out and then pull the piston with it. If all you are doing is o-rings then do not distribe the piston and liner and then reinstall after cleaning everytthing up. If the coolant was coming out of the air box drain and not into the pan the crank should be ok, the bearing will depend on mileage/age.
Nothing alittle dirty hands won't fix, good luck
Lloyd
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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2007, 05:02:00 PM »

What is a slobber tube???
 thanks

Slobber tubes: may also be known as "airbox drains"...small hose, one on each side of a "V" engine block.   They drain condensed oil (and any other fluid that finds its way into the airbox) from the airbox.  Sorta messy concept generally  found on 2 cycles.
"Slobber tubes"  should not be confused with a slobbering exhaust...or road draft tubes.   Wink
JR



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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2007, 06:30:41 PM »

Hello Brian

How much coolant is in the oil?


happy coaching!
buswarrior



I haven't checked for coolant in the oil yet.  You make it sound like I'm pretty much for sure going to have coolant in the oil.  Why is that?  Maybe I'll try and crack open the drain plug tomorrow night and see if oil comes out or water (since water is heavier than oil)...  Sound like the correct plan?
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2007, 06:33:42 PM »

Why not a Cummins M11 or M11+?  Brian Elfert

The M11 is too long... Won't fit ... The ISL is 43" long and should fit with the initial research I've done.

Although, If I'm willing to ditch my ht754 (just rebuilt 20,000 miles ago) and put a shorter tranny in I could probably look at the M11.  I've seen a lot of them sell on ebay in older tractors for less than $10k.  The biggest issue is they have all had manual transmissions.  I'd love to stick with an automatic tranny.  I wonder how much I could get from an older tractor parting it out after pulling the engine and computer/dash componentry?
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belfert
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2007, 08:05:14 PM »

Although, If I'm willing to ditch my ht754 (just rebuilt 20,000 miles ago) and put a shorter tranny in I could probably look at the M11.  I've seen a lot of them sell on ebay in older tractors for less than $10k.  The biggest issue is they have all had manual transmissions.  I'd love to stick with an automatic tranny.  I wonder how much I could get from an older tractor parting it out after pulling the engine and computer/dash componentry?

I think selling the remains of an older tractor after the most expensive parts are gone would be difficult at best.  The tranny might be worth something if you don't use it.

I don't know that I have ever heard of anything besides an RV that used an ISL engine which is probably why they are hard to find.  The ISL is pretty small by current semi tractor standards.  A salvage RV might be a source for an ISL.

Is a B500 tranny any shorter than the HT754?  The B500 would mate up a lot better in any case, especially with the dual overdrives.  You might find a MD4000 or MH4000 series tranny cheaper which is basically the same as a B500 I believe.

Brian Elfert

Brian Elfert
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buswarrior
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« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2007, 01:10:35 PM »

Hello Brian.

Coolant in oil gives you an idea of how bad the rest will be, and lets you decide early whether to bother opening it up or just go get your re-power.

Coolant in the oil is bad for the bearings and the lifters/injector mechanically touching parts.

And that leads quickly to a rebuild, top and bottom.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

PS, easy to pull a valve cover and check the touching surfaces of the rockers against the valves and the injectors. Smooth and shiny is what you want, scoring or dug in divits, not good.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 01:12:48 PM by buswarrior » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2007, 02:06:28 PM »

Brian, I would drain the engine oil, check it for contamination and remove the oil pan.
Check the coolant level, top it off if you need to.
Next thing I would do is remove the air box covers and pressurize the cooling system with 8psi of compressed air.
You will now be able to make a better diagnosis of what your defect might be.
Good luck with your coach.
Sammy  Cool
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2007, 06:01:23 PM »

Well, drained about a quart of coolant out of the oil pan drain (didn't drain the oil).  I also pulled a valve cover.  The interior was "normal" looking to me.  There was only oil ... I.E. no foaming at all.  I would expect that if I'd been running with coolant in the oil for any length of time then I would have some evidence of foam at the top of the engine.  I couldn't see any wear surfaces as they are all covered up with the rockers/injector actuators.  Is it time to pull a head now?
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« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2007, 07:42:30 PM »

Not trying to hijack thread but I have a similar question. I've been looking at a 1973 Eagle 8V71 with slight coolant in oil pan. Owner claims it is an injector tube leaking and he has had this happen before on other engines...Is this a possibility or is it more likely to be liner seals?
TIA..
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« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2007, 08:14:46 PM »

Not trying to hijack thread but I have a similar question. I've been looking at a 1973 Eagle 8V71 with slight coolant in oil pan. Owner claims it is an injector tube leaking and he has had this happen before on other engines...Is this a possibility or is it more likely to be liner seals?
TIA..

Check the chassis for rust.  A "slight" water leak is a subjective term...means different things to people.   Anyway, the water in the engine may be the least of your concerns if rust in the frame is found.  Get EXPERT help with Eagle rust!  Do not guess at it.    If frame passes inspection, let the owner repair the water leak.. since he knows what it is   Cheesy...then verify that it is fixed. Angry  You may have any number of things leaking...pretty much rule out liners though.   Engine would have to be inframed if water has been leaking into it for any time.   I'd run away.   With a bad engine, a 73 Eagle wouldn't have a lot of value...unless it is unusually nice?  Do you have a place to park the bus and work on it?  Can you pull the engine?  Unless you are very well equipped to repair the engine yourself, or can change it out, my suggestion would be to get accurate estimates of repairs for leaking engines... Shocked   
Brian's situation is a little different with a known good running engine that has been exercised recently, and apparently has not had water mixed into the running engine.   
Brian, if you pull the heads, may want to have them serviced while they are off.  You may find a crack in one of the heads.   Sammy offers a good idea with pressurizing the cooling system.  Close off the heater cores before you perform this test.  No since in testing the heater cores  tolerance for pressure.
You may see the fizzies...this would be good to note where water isn't, as well as where it is.  Once you pull a bearing, you'll know whether you need to replace or leave the bearings. 
Good luck, JR   Cool
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2007, 08:57:29 PM »

Hi JR...I've got an 88 Eagle 15, so know about the rust issues with an Eagle (although mine is not bad) The 73 I am looking at is a  West Coast bus with very little rust (appears to be all surface) I can't push an ice pick in anywhere and the framing sounds metallic when I hit with a hammer. He is selling up and is including all of his stock (new and used parts) from when he operated 4 Eagles. Not sure if I need another Eagle, but the stacks of parts are enticing. (BTW I have lots of room) He will not sell anything separate, so I was just curious as to whether the injector tube leaking was a common thing. Thanks
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« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2007, 06:03:06 AM »

so I was just curious as to whether the injector tube leaking was a common thing. Thanks


I don't think the injector tube leaking is common, though it can happen...
My local service guy told me the easiest way to tell if the injector tube or sleeve is leaking is to remove the airbox covers on the sides of the engine until you find a cylinder with water leaking from it.  If the water is coming out the ports it is likely an injector tube.  If the water is coming from above the ports down from the head then it is most likely a cylinder sleeve leak.

HTH

PS.  Make SURE to not run it with water in the oil.  Make sure to drain out the coolant before trying to run the engine.  Better yet, fix it where it is and then put in new oil. 
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« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2007, 09:35:07 AM »

Hello Timkar,
Brian offers good ideas on locating the leaks...injector tubes leaking isn't common, but on an old engine that has not been used for a while, anything is possible.  Water may get into a DD 2 cycle if it rains on it ...that water won't be the color of antifreeze.  Injector tubes may be leaking, heads cracked, cylinder head gaskets... 
If I had to pull the injectors out related to water leaks,  believe I'd do a compression test and go ahead and pull the heads and have them serviced, IF the compression was within normal limits.  Also pull the pan to try to evaluate just how much water may have been run thru the engine.  If the bearings are wiping metal, it won't be an easy fix...still fixable.   If you find little droplets of water in the bottom of oil puddles in the head low places, you probably wouldn't want to go to too much trouble with that engine.
Any signs of rust inside the engine is a bad sign. 
Brian, how's your project coming?  Found your leaks?  Post what you find!    Huh
Cheers, JR



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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2007, 09:54:37 AM »


Brian, how's your project coming?  Found your leaks?  Post what you find!    Huh
Cheers, JR


Hey JR,
I found the leak in the middle cylinder liner on the passenger side of the engine.  I turned over the engine with a wrench last night as well and no water came out of the ports... so no leaks in the injector tube.  I'm now trying to figure out all my options.  I've been doing a lot of calling around on different engines to see what is available and what it might cost.  I'm also trying to find a local DD 2 stroke guy willing to do a little moonlighting with me if I decide to tear down this engine.  Lots to look into yet... The biggest thing I'm trying to figure out is if I can swallow putting money into a engine I'd like to just get rid of all together .... I looking at getting a L10e or an M11 right now.  I finally got some dimensions for the motor and the next step is to figure out what automatic transmission options I have are given the length available to me.  After I figure that out I have to crunch some numbers and see where it leaves me. 
-Brian
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« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2007, 04:46:27 PM »

Thanks for the info Gents
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