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Author Topic: cold start questions  (Read 3306 times)
DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2007, 01:21:52 PM »

Natural Resources Canada is a department of the Canadian Federal Goverment.

The quote referred to "when an engine idles for an extended period of time"  apparently is valid on both gasoline and diesel engines in regard to the components that it refers to.

Richard: Here is a link to one of their pages where they have a link to "ask the experts"  so you may want to ask them questions about the study.

http://http://www.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/inter/products_e.html

Thanks for the link Stan, but I really do not think I want to get any more involved with this. Do Canandian diesels only get 600 hours of operation?
Richard
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« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2007, 02:38:00 PM »

I would really like for some of these people crying wolf to come up with some certified data, or forget about it.
Richard



I personally have idled all night to stay warm once and noticed no problem.  And like I said, all  former comercial coaches and transits have idled extensively already.  But I don't doubt for a minute that it can shorten engine life.  But here is some information from the manual and an article from Fleetmag.com citing a study:

Quote from: Page 68, RTS Coach Operating Manual (C-8724-A)
ENGINE IDLING
Avoid unnecessary or prolonged idling.  The engine cools faster when allowed to idle in extreme outside temperatures.  This can cause deposits to form in the comustion chamber, on exhaust valves, and around piston rings.

If you plan to park for more than a minute or two or to leave the coach shut off the engine.  If idling is absolutely necessary due to the nature or conditions of the run, try to maintain 1000 engine rpm (Fast Idle).



Article from Fleetmag.com - "Shutting Down", by Mark Gehred-O'Connell
http://http://fleetmag.com/articles/2004/fm0304/fm0304_02.htm

Quote
According to Natural Resources Canada (NRCan), when an engine idles for extended periods, engine oil becomes contaminated more quickly, because of the large amounts of intake air. At 600 rpm, excess air in the combustion cycle cools the cylinder liners, resulting in incomplete combustion and condensation of unburned fuel on cylinder walls. These deposits are drawn into the oil sump where they contaminate the engine oil and reduce its lubricity.

NRCan studies show that prolonged idling can reduce the operating life of diesel engine oil by 75 percent, from 600 engine-hours to 150 .
NRCan also finds that idling produces carbon deposits and unburned fuel residues that accumulate and can damage spark plugs,   fuel injectors, valve seats and piston crowns.

Studies performed by Caterpillar, Inc. indicate that low engine operating temperatures at idle will allow water vapor to form and condense in the crankcase. The water in the crankcase will combine chemically with sulfur oxides and result in sulfuric acid. The acid can damage bearings, cylinders, piston rings and valve stems. According to the company, this damage could result in a 15 percent reduction in engine life.



You know, I am truly inclined to trust the studies performed by anyone that is concerned about spark plug life in a diesel engine.   

And by my calculations 600 engine hours is equal to about 36,000 miles at 60 mph. Reduced by 75% that would be about 9,000 miles.
Who is this outfit anyhow?
Richard



Regarding the 600 hours, that was the engine oil life figure, not engine life.  Good point about the spark plugs.  Perhaps their study covered both diesel and gasoline engines.

An environmentalist organization or department of the government may not be the best source for information like that but I do consider my GM RTS II operating manual to be fairly reliable.  Wink  Also there are a number of references in Google to Caterpillar workig with the US DOE on an idle reduction research project which, without dedicating more research to the topic, may provide some credibility to the paragraph in the article citing their results.



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bobofthenorth
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« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2007, 02:49:19 PM »

Who is this outfit anyhow?
Richard

It's my tax dollars at work.  Doncha wish you were a Canuck?
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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Gary LaBombard
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« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2007, 03:11:52 PM »

WEC4104
Good information on the site you posted, thanks a Million.
Gary
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Gary
DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2007, 04:42:03 PM »

Regarding the 600 hours, that was the engine oil life figure, not engine life. 
Very good point I missed that little word oil. Now I am wondering if 600 hours for an oil change is a good number? Does anybody change oil based on an elapsed time running meter as opposed to a odometer?
Richard
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« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2007, 05:26:47 PM »

As a follow up to the cold start thread - early this morning the bus started almost instantly.  I believe earlier in the thread it was noted that the bus engine retains heat for hours.  That must have been what happened.  At 33 degrees, there was absolutely NO problem starting up the bus.

All the same, I had purchased a can of starter fluid at Flying J - just in case!

While I was at the Vehicle Clinic they told me about a new add-on they have available which completely automates the process of adding a pre-mixed amount of ether to start the bus.  This pre-mix is sent into the system automatically when a sensor determines the temperature is at 40 degrees or below.   No danger of the driver sending the wrong amount of ether into the engine.   This is probably not for us as I'm going to get the block heater going, and we don't spend enough time starting the bus at extremely  cold temps.  But it did sound interesting, and didn't look very complex.

Thanks for all the ideas - I have definetly learned a lot about cold starting.

Best Regards - Phil

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H3Jim
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« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2007, 05:51:42 PM »

Richard,
I don't think I drive enough to run up anywhere near 600 hours before I change the oil.  I have just been changing it every year whether it needs it or not.
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« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2007, 06:59:59 PM »

600 hrs at an average 80 kph would be 48,000 km.  I change at 20,000 km & my oil samples say it's not time to change yet but I've never tried going longer.  Twice as long?  Who knows.
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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Dallas
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« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2007, 07:06:47 PM »

Regarding the 600 hours, that was the engine oil life figure, not engine life. 
Very good point I missed that little word oil. Now I am wondering if 600 hours for an oil change is a good number? Does anybody change oil based on an elapsed time running meter as opposed to a odometer?
Richard

A hobbs meter is used on many types of machinery in order to keep track of oil usage.
Off road logging and construction equipment, locomotives,  refrigeration units, generators, mining equipment, just to name a few.

Dallas
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Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2007, 07:22:44 PM »

Hi Guy's,

Here is a link to a Honeywell hobbs meter and assy's..

http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/hss/hobbscorp/family.asp

Nick-
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