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Author Topic: Summit Fridge  (Read 4547 times)
DavidInWilmNC
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« on: February 05, 2007, 09:49:48 AM »

I'm looking at 'fridges for the bus and the Summit CP133 has been recommended.  It's a cycle defrost with no fans and is Energy Star rated, and fairly inexpensive.  It's around 10 cu. ft, which is about the right size, plus it'll fit through a window to get it in the bus.  I plan on adding additional insulation to the sides ( 3/4-1" rigid foam board) to the sides, top, and thinner on the back between the coils and the fridge itself.  I'd obviously build this in, as that pink foam is not the look I'm going for!  Ventilation would be provided, so that would not be an issue.  Has anybody used this model, or one similar, and had good results?  I'll run it on an inverter or genset when the bus is running, or on inverter and batteries when stopped.  I realize I'll eventually have to upgrade my battery bank for this, but a larger propane 'fridge isn't in the budget at the moment, unless somebody has a good one that they want to get rid of cheap!   Wink  I'll mostly be using the bus for an occasional overnight stay without power, but generally hooked to a pole.  Any suggestions, criticisms, or general comments would be appreciated (as long as they're useful!).  Thanks.

David
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DavidInWilmNC
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2007, 06:51:11 PM »

Here's a link to the one in question.  http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/CP133.html.  I've seen 'demand defrost' fridges mentioned here before (or maybe it was BNO) and the individual had good luck with adding additional insulation, etc.

David
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Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2007, 07:25:13 PM »

Hi David,

I read all the discriptions on this refrig but, I don't seem to see the most important spec.  Amp Draw...

Thats kinda strange for them to leave that out. I'd like to know the defrost amps as well as the refrig. amp draw.

Let me know if I missed that.

Nick-
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2007, 07:33:21 PM »

Dave, can't help with your elect fridge, but if an LP unit would suit (and if price is an issue), you may wish to check on a used takeout.  There's a huge RV salvage dealer in Liberty, NC.  I don't have a phone number, and have never bought anything from them, but before I bought a bus went over and looked around.   They had a ton of good RV appliances...at least they looked good. 
Most of the top and bottom door LP units (freezer on top?) will easily go thru an MC9 window.   Probably most side by side units would also. 
Let me know if you're interested and I'll get the name of the place.  A friend lives near there.
I can offer this, if you plan to be on a pole most of the time, an electric home style fridge will keep things colder, and would likely be less problematic, and much easier to install.   However, should you plan on boonying for any period, plans to refresh the batts would be in order. 
JR
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2007, 09:06:26 PM »

David,

Look for the amp draw and if it has a switch to turn off the defrost.  if it doesent you'll want to add one so it doesent defrost when your on batteries

My trace 4024 has a standby mode that it uses very little energy until aload is needed and then runs then.  the inverter efficiency goes down with load going down, and uses some energy when waiting for load.

I can put mine in standby and the batteries keep the fridge going for a while like parking at a sitesee or resturaunt. at 1.9 amps(label) on the fridge about 240watts and about 100 amphr(@ 24v) or 2400 watthours on the batteries about 10 hours strait time and much more on cycling time

good luck and let us know what you come up with
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2007, 05:44:58 AM »

I've emailed the manufacturer and asked for the current draw.  Lowe's also has this model http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=209768-46-ET0WSRXMQ&lpage=none, but I'm sure it'll be less efficient than the Summit.  This one is a standard frost-free model where as the other one is 'frostless' in the refrigerator only.  I have a clamp-on ammeter that I'll take to Lowe's and see what the current draw is.  I believe I looked at that model in the past and its label indicated 6.5 amps, but I'm sure that's for when it's in defrost mode and with the heaters to reduce condensation.  It should be relatively easy to bypass the defrost heaters.  Still, the model without the heaters would likely be a bit easier to use, as I wouldn't have to remember to bypass then switch back on the defrost heaters.  I'll post whatever the draw is on the Lowe's model and what info. I get on the Summit.  Thanks.

David
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Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2007, 07:01:37 AM »

Hi David,

I purchaced this refrig. for my bus for two reasons.

1- the amp draw in refrigeration is 4.3  Defrost cycle is 6.7 which I installed a bypass switch if I choose.

2- it has held enough food for two week trips with the kids along.

3- I'm a Frigidaire dealer  LOL..

Here's the same at lowes

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=134691-2251-FLSC238DS&lpage=none

Nick-
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2007, 07:34:18 AM »

Nice fridge, Nick.  It looks big enough to hold the kids plus food!  I'm pretty much limited to either depth or width of 24", as I don't want to remove a windshield.  I finally got them leak-free.  Do you know if Frigidaire makes something in the 9.5-11 cu. ft. range that's either frost-free or frost-less and easy on power consumption?  Thanks!

David
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 08:30:23 AM »

I found that many of the smaller fridges in the range you are looking for are Chinese or overseas made.  The Americans don't have much in the range, at least not with manul defrost and low amp draw.  Haier has several in that size range both with and without defrost.  The Haier I choose claims to have only a 1.2 or 1.5 amp draw.

Is there anything Nick doesn't sell? 

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2007, 09:05:09 AM »

Hi David,

With all the major brands, there are no small [9 to 12 cf] refrigerators that carry the energy star rating.

The Summit that you mention seems to have the * rating but, seems strange that they won't print the amp draw..

If you do your amp meter test at the store I'm sure that will tell the truth.

Good Luck
Nick-

Brian, Is there somthing you need??  I'm sure I can sell you something.....
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DavidInWilmNC
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2007, 09:36:31 AM »

Nick, the one I'll check is a Whirlpool, I believe, but it shows its yearly energy consumption to be higher than some 18+ cu ft models.  I'm guessing this is due to the insulation. As an aside, my 26 cu ft at home is a 13 year old Kenmore that (originally, at least) uses less kw-hours than some new models.  It's got expanded foam in the sides, top, back, bottom, and door and doesn't have any of those condensation heaters.  When I switched to that from an old '70's Coldspot, my power bill dropped around $30


LG (most likely Chinese or Korean) has a model that might be what I'm looking for.  Here's a quote from the email I received from LG just now:

"The LRTN09314SW power consumption is 2.5 amps and the current draw is 300 watts. This is the only model that is 24''. For further information or troubleshooting, you may contact us at 800-243-0000 for LG Customer Service assistance. An agent will be glad to assist you. Please feel free to contact us with any additional questions or concerns. Thank you again for contacting LG Electronics."

I think that they have a few things confused, though.  Current draw should be 2.5 amps and power consumption should be 300 watts.  The email mentions 24", but I think that's depth, according to Google searches.  Width is supposed to be 21.5"  If so, that's even better, as I have quite a bit of cabinet space / counter top area and would like to have a bit more space in the pantry. 

Brian, what model Haier do you have?  My main requirements are at least around 9+ cu. ft. and a separate door for the fridge and freezer sections. 

We'll see what the ammeter has to say.  I'd really rather have something other than a white fridge, which is what the cheap imports tend to be.

David
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2007, 09:55:05 AM »

In addition to amps drawn, it would be beneficial to know what the power factor is. If the PF was for instance 0.9 then you would multiply the actual measured amps by .9  and multiply that by the voltage to get actual watts used. In this case actual watts would be lower by 10% than if you just used amps and volts to determine wattage.
In Davids example then the actual wattage would be 270 watts, instead of 300 watts.
Richard


Nick, the one I'll check is a Whirlpool, I believe, but it shows its yearly energy consumption to be higher than some 18+ cu ft models.  I'm guessing this is due to the insulation. As an aside, my 26 cu ft at home is a 13 year old Kenmore that (originally, at least) uses less kw-hours than some new models.  It's got expanded foam in the sides, top, back, bottom, and door and doesn't have any of those condensation heaters.  When I switched to that from an old '70's Coldspot, my power bill dropped around $30


LG (most likely Chinese or Korean) has a model that might be what I'm looking for.  Here's a quote from the email I received from LG just now:

"The LRTN09314SW power consumption is 2.5 amps and the current draw is 300 watts. This is the only model that is 24''. For further information or troubleshooting, you may contact us at 800-243-0000 for LG Customer Service assistance. An agent will be glad to assist you. Please feel free to contact us with any additional questions or concerns. Thank you again for contacting LG Electronics."

I think that they have a few things confused, though.  Current draw should be 2.5 amps and power consumption should be 300 watts.  The email mentions 24", but I think that's depth, according to Google searches.  Width is supposed to be 21.5"  If so, that's even better, as I have quite a bit of cabinet space / counter top area and would like to have a bit more space in the pantry. 

Brian, what model Haier do you have?  My main requirements are at least around 9+ cu. ft. and a separate door for the fridge and freezer sections. 

We'll see what the ammeter has to say.  I'd really rather have something other than a white fridge, which is what the cheap imports tend to be.

David
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2007, 09:59:33 AM »

The place in Liberty, NC has a web address.   www.nationalrecoveryservice.com    phone is 336-622-7285.
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2007, 10:43:03 AM »

Brian, Is there somthing you need??  I'm sure I can sell you something.....

A new entrance door for my bus, seriously.

I'm sure between you, Bruce Knee, and Ross, the work would get done, but I don't have the time to drive to Delaware.  The only palce that would do the work locally would just install an RV door like used on a travel trailer.  I would like something a bit better.

Brian Elfert
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Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2007, 11:14:59 AM »

Brian,

If you can work up a cad drawling to be able to send to me, I can fabricate anything to spec.

A door is a door, it's not rocket science... or it can be if you want some star trek kinda door

that makes a "tech" sound when it opens.  LOL..

Maybe we can give you one of theese cool paddels that Bruce and I have on our busses..

Nick-
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2007, 11:33:22 AM »

If you are concerned with how long it will cool on battery power then you need to shop for the lowest energy usage.  All refrigerators have, because of fedral law, a sticker giving the kilowatt hours consumed per year.  Lower is better!  If you want a fairly large refrigerator, check out the Avanti 1201w-1, 11cu ft,  it is rated to consume 277KWh/year which equates to an aveage of 31.62 watts.  A litle (8.7 cu ft).,  but without much freezer space is the Avanti RM901W which at 230 kwh/year or about 26.25 watts average, is getting right down with Sunfrost.   I chose to go even smaller but with a much larger freezer behind a second door I chose the Avanti  651 wt1 (I actually got the ss653 which is the stainless version).  This is only a 6.3 cu ft unit but it's plenty for my use and its rated draw is 254 kwh/yr or about 29 watts average.  After I got mine I ran it overnight through a "Kil-a-watt" power measuring toy.  I recorded an average use of 26 watts over 24 hours.  Then I added insulation, 1" to the back, sides and bottom and 1 1/2" to the top.  I had to relocate the compressor and remount the coils on the back.  I used 1/2" sheets of 'Rmax" (r7/ inch) material and glued it on and taped all the seams.  After adding the insulation I did another 24 hour run and recorded an average of 19 watts.  So adding insulation is very much worth the effort.
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Jerry 4107 1120
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2007, 11:56:58 AM »

Brian,

If you can work up a cad drawling to be able to send to me, I can fabricate anything to spec.

A door is a door, it's not rocket science... or it can be if you want some star trek kinda door

No, it isn't rocket science to make a door, but you do have to have the tools and skills to use them.  I don't own a welder nor have I used one since high school shop class.  I probably will get one once my bus garage gets built, but it will take time to get good with one..

This door project isn't quite as simple as just building the door either since the hole on the bus has to framed in somewhat.  I don't have a problem paying to get this done.  I just need to find someone to do it.

Busted Knuckle AKA Bryce Gaston has a local guy that does really good metal work, but I've been trying to get a price from him since November.  I don't have as much a problem driving down to Tennessee as to Delaware.

This is way off topic and should be taken to PMs I suppose.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2007, 02:21:03 PM »

If you are concerned with how long it will cool on battery power then you need to shop for the lowest energy usage.  All refrigerators have, because of fedral law, a sticker giving the kilowatt hours consumed per year.  Lower is better!  If you want a fairly large refrigerator, check out the Avanti 1201w-1, 11cu ft,  it is rated to consume 277KWh/year which equates to an aveage of 31.62 watts.  A litle (8.7 cu ft).,  but without much freezer space is the Avanti RM901W which at 230 kwh/year or about 26.25 watts average, is getting right down with Sunfrost.   I chose to go even smaller but with a much larger freezer behind a second door I chose the Avanti  651 wt1 (I actually got the ss653 which is the stainless version).  This is only a 6.3 cu ft unit but it's plenty for my use and its rated draw is 254 kwh/yr or about 29 watts average.  After I got mine I ran it overnight through a "Kil-a-watt" power measuring toy.  I recorded an average use of 26 watts over 24 hours.  Then I added insulation, 1" to the back, sides and bottom and 1 1/2" to the top.  I had to relocate the compressor and remount the coils on the back.  I used 1/2" sheets of 'Rmax" (r7/ inch) material and glued it on and taped all the seams.  After adding the insulation I did another 24 hour run and recorded an average of 19 watts.  So adding insulation is very much worth the effort.
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Jerry 4107 1120

Wow, Jerry

Just goes to show what a little thought and work can get you.  That is a major increase in efficiency.  Separating and putting more insulation between the compressor/coils and the box makes sense. 

How did you move the compressor and coils?  Did you open the sealed system.  I have done some sealed system work and still have the tools.  Maybe moving the compressor and condenser coils to a bay besides making the refer more efficient would remove the heat load from the AC system too. The box could then be super insulated and approach Sunfrost type performance for cheep.  Food for thought.

  I may have to rethink my intended use of a RV fridge.  At this point I am just not sure how much boondocking we might want to do.  Thanks for the info.

Don 4107-501
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2007, 04:31:50 PM »

I have a friend, bus nut, that bought a side by side refrigerator for his coach and is in the process of installing the legendary Danfoss compressors in it.  He will run off 24 volts and expects above average effiiciency.  He is also super insulating the back and sides and top.  In the mean time its a great pantry.
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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2007, 04:43:51 PM »

Jim, did I get this right, he's purchased a "normal" household fridge, cut the stock compresor out and is installing a Danfoss?
Interesting idea.
 Nick, any nasties you can think of in doing this?  For me there's a good chance if I do this I'd get a much better
size match for what I want in a fridge, for less money than buying a Tundra or Novakool... verrrrry interesting idea...
Gary
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2007, 04:49:53 PM »

Gary, yes that's exactly what he did, is doing.

Ron Walker, 1998 H3-45

Before he completes it, he is currenty using a danfoss in an ice chest.  That sounds like a solution thats right up your alley.
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Jim Stewart
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2007, 05:23:22 PM »

Nick,

What are the dimensions, they look real nice. Where did you get them?

Happy Trails,

Paul

Dreamscape
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Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2007, 05:56:30 PM »

Jim, did I get this right, he's purchased a "normal" household fridge, cut the stock compresor out and is installing a Danfoss?
Interesting idea.
 Nick, any nasties you can think of in doing this?  For me there's a good chance if I do this I'd get a much better
size match for what I want in a fridge, for less money than buying a Tundra or Novakool... verrrrry interesting idea...
Gary


Boogie,

From a refrigeration standpoint, you really need to know what you are doing being a capaliary system.

The slightest bit of moisture or dirt in the system can cause major headaches for a long time. That is the reason a good refrig.

man always seals up the lines when he has to open the system like when removing the compressor. After such a

project, the system has to be evacuated, install a new dryer, and properly recharged. [and of course, sized properly]

Done right, it can be good system.

Nick-
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« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2007, 05:58:48 PM »

Nick,

What are the dimensions, they look real nice. Where did you get them?

Happy Trails,

Paul

Dreamscape

Hi Paul,

If you are referring to the paddle latch, it is made by Trimark    www.trimark.com

Nick-
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« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2007, 08:02:23 PM »

Don,
   No I didn't 'open' the sealed system.  There was enough 'slack' in the tubing to allow it to be carefully bent to the new positions.  I moved the compressor back about 3 inches and moved the coils back 1" so I maintained the same airspace in front of the coils.  BTW when the compressor is running my refrigerator is drawing between 100 and 130 watts so for those concerned about peak power draw it would be under 1 1/2 amps on 120 volts.  I also made a front mounting flange out of 3/4" hard maple and glued it to the refrigerator's sides, top and bottom, I used 'Gorilla' glue.  I made plywood legs to support it about 6" above the floor, for ventilation and to reduce the stress on the mounting flange.  Other advantages of this refrigerator, I moved it into the bus with the added insulation and mounting flange through the door and I have my microwave mounted on a shelf above it and have good air flow over the coils in the final installation.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2007, 08:17:28 PM »

To all those considering switching the compressor to a Danfos.  There is a company that does this conversion and sells 12 volt refrigerators, their units are all over $1000.  I seriously doubt that there really is any gain in efficiency over a modern energy star ccompressor, even considering the inverter losses.  The addition of insulation is a much beter and more economical route.  My experiences show that I'm in 'sunfrost' teritory with an annual energy use of about 175 kwh/yr but I only have a 6.3 cu ft refrigerator.  I do believe that if one started with the Avanti 901w and added insulation as I did,  even lower energy use could be obtained with an  8.7  cu ft refrigerator.
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Jerry 4107 1120
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2007, 08:29:05 PM »

Thanks for the info, Jerry.  Your 'super insulation' modification is what I was referring to; I just couldn't remember who posted about it.  I do want a 2 door fridge, so I'll check out the larger models you mentioned if the ones I'm considering don't look like good candidates.

David
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