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Author Topic: Using never-seize on lug nuts  (Read 13625 times)
Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2007, 08:44:56 PM »

When i torque my lug nuts with the 12:1 multiplier  i use a 19" torque wrench set at 40 lbs......40x12=480 lbs.  I can tighten lug nuts all day with one hand and not be tired, plus i know to within a lb. or two what they are torqued to!!!!
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2007, 09:22:33 PM »

I have been in the transportation industry for almost my entire career. Things are different for operators like BK. He has a lot to worry about. EPA, DOT, OSHA, etc. Any one of these government agencies can end your life and your business as you know it if they wanted to. An operator doesn’t want anymore exposure than necessary. If one of BK’s buses had an accident, all three of those agencies and others would be there on the scene of the accident and in his shop going over every inch, digging through every record…blah, blah, blah. It might not have been a wheel that came off, but a lawyer will look at his shop practices and use any thing that could be considered “not good practice” to build his negligence case against him. We can all probably run anti-seize for a 100 yrs without a problem, but Happycampersrus and Hightechredneck have it right, a trial lawyer would eat you alive. To many of you are balking at the FleetOwners article. Everyone has their opinions, but those at FleetOwner are in the industry, and probably collectively know more about it than all of us put together….FWIW
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2007, 05:59:59 AM »

There have been many salient points made here but let us be realistic. IF you own a bus or large truck AND a wheel comes off AND somebody or something is injured or damaged AND your insurance company does not settle, YOU ARE GOING TO BE SUED.

If your attorney cannot convince the judge/jury that the wheel coming off was entirely beyond your control and no amount of inspection and/or maintenance would have revealed or fixed the problem, YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING TO LOSE. Whether you use Never Seize, 30wt oil, goose grease, hair slickum, possum fat, air wrenches, damsels in distress, torque multipliers, flag poles, or magnetic poles will only be small cogs in the wheel of your down hill run to conviction.

The crux of the matter is maintenance and inspection. As pointed out in an earlier post, do you regularly inspect your running gear? Do a walk around EVERYTIME you stop? For those of us that use simulators, have you removed yours lately to see what’s going on behind them? When was the last time you checked the tire pressure … with an ACCURATE gauge? Have you jacked the bus up and had all the bushings, tie rod ends, pitman arm, kingpins and other steering /suspension components checked by someone who you KNOW knows what he is doing?  I was appalled some years ago to find someone I respected as a mechanic checking wear on Hendrickson suspension by driving the tractor in a tight circle. He said “Bushings are good! She’s only tracking about 4 inches out of line….” When we jacked the tractor up, we could shove a ¾” punch between the trunion and walking beam. Do you know enough about your particular vehicle to judge whether or not your mechanic knows what he is doing? If not, this board is a good place to START learning. Get whatever manuals & books you can find on your equipment & read them. We don’t all have to be master mechanics, but we should be able to follow the conversation. If you don’t KNOW, find someone who does! If you are not comfortable with what they say, find someone else. No amount of excuses will ever make up for your or someone else’s injury or death.

A lot of our buses have no required inspections because of our “camper” status. It is up to us to see that they are safe. As soon as we take a particular course of action to avoid a lawsuit after a caused accident, we have already lost that battle.

INSPECTION    MAINTAINENCE      SAFETY

MY life is in YOUR hands!
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Happycampersrus
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2007, 06:10:52 AM »

Gus,

 "ODI says, approximately 1,000 accidents annually result from wheels falling off commercial vehicles. Left-side wheels are more likely to hit another vehicle and generate an accident report than right-side wheels, which often run off the road without causing notable damage. In some instances, however, loose right- side wheels seriously injure or kill pedestrians, sparking multi-million-dollar lawsuits against motor carriers."

"What does this have to do with using anti-seize??"  A bunch.  Grin

Lets just look and see what some other "experts" say

http://www.alcoa.com/alcoawheels/catalog/pdf/HDSM022004_en.pdf

If you will read the alcoa manual page 31. This is directly from a wheel manufacturer, NOT from the trade magazine.

Lubricants should not be applied to the cap nut seat or to the cap
nut-to-wheel contact surface. Oiled seats can lead to over-torquing which can stretch studs causing failure of studs. Failed studs can cause the wheel to disengage from the vehicle,causing injury or death.
Lubricants MUST be completely removed from the cap nut seats and contact
surfaces if applied accidentally.

Then see page 35
"Do NOT lubricate the face of the hub, wheel face or brake drum.

Then only lube to be used is a LIGHT oiling of SAE 30wt oil on the lug threads.

"I think the real myth is that just because it gets publiished in a trade magazine it is gospel! These things go on for years because nobody bothers to check it out since it was written by "experts"."

All of these warnings and Instructions are from Alcoa and other manufacturers. There not myths and lurban legends. The warnings come from extensive engineering and testing.

Go by the service manuals, Do your inpections, Do your preventive maintenance the correct way and on time. If you do these coupled with GOOD information you will not have very many problems.
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jjrbus
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2007, 07:33:00 AM »

Is Antisieze a lubricant?
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2007, 07:56:55 AM »

http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/b_lubricants/specialty_lubricants/Permatex_Anti-Seize_Lubricant_a.htm

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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2007, 06:39:09 PM »

Well, we all have our opinions I guess, but I believe in referencing a known authority. If it concerns electricity, refer to NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code.  If it concerns propane installations, refer to the applicable NFPA code.  I don't know who publishes the standard for lug nuts, but obviously, that will be the best reference, right?  In the military, we of course had the military publications, which specified torque values on aircraft, and dictated that we torque everything twice.  It also told us to return the setting to zero on the wrench during storage between jobs, and to return the wrench to the proper technicians for recalibration not only periodically, but anytime it was dropped.  FWIW       
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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2007, 09:04:02 PM »

Interesting discussion.  I wouldn't argue for or against lubricants on studs.  I would be interested in how many wheels came off buses...say last year?   Or whatever the period of time the described "thousands" of wheels came off. Causation is the key.  I'm sure this has been pretty will hashed around. 
Regarding liability, my guess would be that no matter what the reason, if your wheel comes off, you are responsible.  Period.  Neverseize or otherwise.  They wouldn't have to prove why it came off...the thing speaks for itself.    You may be able to share exposure if you just left a tire shop...and they had just R&R'd the lost wheel. 
The science doesn't appear to be in yet.  Neverseize is a lubricant. 
Reckon we need one of Ben Edge's polls about now...How many use neverseize or lube on the studs...how many wheels have come off buses....how many deaths may be attributed to such wheel loss.....and does wheel loss change the sound of the...sorry. 
May I posit that wheels do indeedy come off all the time.  Lubed or otherwise.  But they are falling off for reasons such as they are not rechecked, left loose, tire guys rely on air wrench to return wheels and zap'em on to 800 lbs, or 200 lbs.   Depends on whether they used the old worn out wrench or the new unit.  Some truckers are amazingly sloppy with their maint.   The get confused. 
I check my lugs every time I stop for fuel, or to make a "pit stop."
I have Alcoas and high-hats.  So the lugs are available.  If I ever found one loose, it would scare the poop out of me.  However, I'm one of the NeverSeize users...not gobs...just light smear on the stud threads.  None on the flange of my hub piloted lugnuts.  I torque them per Alcoa's specs for lube.   I believe that Alcoa must specify a lubricant so that they can appear to control the application of data.
Obviously there is considerable tolerance for lubricants, or lack thereof.  Alcoa offers two methods to torque wheels.  With lube and without. 
I also believe that if NeverSeize could be identified as an agent that could cause wheels to fall off, it would be under scrutiny and regulated by DOT. 
No matter how much lube you put on the wheel attachment hardware, if the wheels are tightened and torqued correctly, and rechecked per the manual, it's highly unlikely that those wheels will come off. 
Torquing dry lugs onto dry studs/wheels can result in low torque and possible loss of wheel.
Let's see the numbers.  Who is losing wheels and why.  I'll bet the research is all in. 
Maybe we could get a DOT report IDing causation of wheel loss.
Happy bussing!  JR   
   
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2007, 05:25:47 AM »

"Obviously there is considerable tolerance for lubricants, or lack thereof.  Alcoa offers two methods to torque wheels.  With lube and without." 

Right, but they don't recommend never-seize, anti-seize, or grease. only recommends SAE 30wt oil. Wonder why  Huh

"I also believe that if NeverSeize could be identified as an agent that could cause wheels to fall off, it would be under scrutiny and regulated by DOT."

It already is under scrutiny by both Alcoa and Accuride(steel wheel manufacturer). Both manufacturers have several warnings in their manuals about how much lube and were to place it.

"Torquing dry lugs onto dry studs/wheels can result in low torque and possible loss of wheel. "

UHH  Huh That's one way Alcoa & Accuride WANTS you to torque the lugs.

Page 32 Alcoa manual.
It is recommended that stud threads on stud located mounting systems be lubricated with SAE 30W oil and torqued between 350 and 400 foot-pounds. If threads are not lubricated, torque to between 450 and 500 foot-pounds.

Would you use, say 30wt hydraulic oil in your Detroit engine because "YOU" (not Detroit) thought it lubricated better?? Of course not, you follow the manufacturers recommendations of CF-2.

So why go against the manufacturer and slap on never-seize?

I will agree that a SMALL amount just on the threads could be a good thing for corrosion control, but there are folks using it other places during a wheel installation and that can be a real problem.

On of the major concerns I have is an OVER torqued wheel will crack and loose the wheel.
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2007, 05:44:19 AM »

"I will agree that a SMALL amount just on the threads could be a good thing for corrosion control, but there are folks using it other places during a wheel installation and that can be a real problem"

 Where else could you use it?
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2007, 06:56:14 AM »

Jim,

Some folks have used anti-seize or lube on the beveled part of the lug nut (stud located). That will cause an over torque of the lug causing the rim to crack and possibly seperate, as in the pic I provided.

Some folks have even used a thin coat between the hub and rim and also between dual rims to try to prevent corrosion. That can and will cause an under torque situation as the grease or anti-seize is forced out the wheels loosen up. Then a loose or floppy wheel causes cracks, wollowing of the holes, and possibly separating.

The Alcoa and Accuride manuals have pictures that show some results of over & under torque. 

I have done alot of wheel and brake maintenance in my career as a heavy equipment mechanic and I have seen plenty of cracked wheels that make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I have even seen the inside dual crack that wouldn't be detected on a walk around inspection.

FWIW, the hub piloted nuts are a better system and they are more forgiving than the ball seat nuts on over torquing. The flange nut won't put as much stress on the rim as the ball seat nuts do. The ball seat nut can crack the rim if "buried" into the rim by over torquing the nut.
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2007, 07:24:12 AM »

Ok 1st off I've been Trucking, Towing, or Busing for 20+ yrs! I've never ever even come close to loosing a wheelin all those yrs, and I used anti-seize the whole time! Opps, OK there was one time the truck (tractor & trailer) I was towing lost the left rear drive duals! But theres more to the story, first off I was told by the Freightliner dealer that called it in that it was an engine problem. Then while pulling the driveshaft the driver said I don't really think it was the engine I think the transmission locked up! Well ok, I finished pulling the driveshaft, & hooking up & started down the highway. Well it just kept trying to wander every where and "didn't feel right", so I pulled over did a walk around checking everything the hook-up, wheels, tires, 5th wheel, axle sliders, you name I checked it! Then came the phone call telling me to hurry up I was 3 calls behind and 1 of them was a 200 mile tow (from the scale house!). So away we went and again it just would not "tow right" so I proceeded using the shoulder and only running 20-25 mph and praying I could make it the last 10 miles after stopping at the scales & letting the driver there know I was gonna be a while! ( I had to go through anyway!) But as luck would have it 4 miles from the dealership, I saw those duals come off and pass me then go off down in he median. Well now what do I do? Well I called our shop and had 'em send out a tractor for the trailer, then I eased up the exit ramp and dropped the trailer on some heavy timbers. Then pulled the tractor over to the shoulder on the over pass, and dropped it. Then backed back down the ramp, rolled the duals out of the median, across I-24 and  behind the tow truck and picked them up with the boom. Then drove back up the ramp, and backed up to the tractor, hooked it up on the under reach, about the time I finished hooking up our tractor showed up for the trailer. We hooked him up and away we went! Ok so I have lost a wheel, but the lugs didn't fail!!! Anti-seize would not have helped or hurt in this case! The problem was the driver had a set of wheel bearings go down in FL and kept driving up I-75, & I-24 until the axle snapped (his tranny lock up!), and then I came along misinformed, and towed the whole unit instead of dropping the trailer & towing the tractor from the rear as it should have been in the 1st place!

Ok with all that said I've never lost even as much as a lugnut using anti-seize in over 20 yrs of use! But in this day and age of lawyers waiting for any and every accident involving a commercial vehicle, to convince the "victims" they are owed $$$$$$$$$.$$ because the commercial vehicle is at fault. There are too many stupid frivolous lawsuits these days for ME to personally take a chance anymore! I knock on my hard head I've fortunate so far, but this fat boy ain't push'n his luck no more!  FWIW BK  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2007, 10:48:58 AM »

Clarification is in order.  I stated that I check my wheel lugs at every it stop...what I do is a "walkaround" and feel and look at the studs.
My lugnuts turn freely when loosened.  So they are easy to check for looseness.  I don't get out the torque wrench and attempt to torque the lugs at every stop. 
One other tidbit, i am not recommending that anyone attach a wheel in any manner other than the methods recommended by the manufacturere of said wheel.   
I do however, question the rationale of many articles and such that seem authored by "experts."   Show me the research.   
I'm still interested in whose wheels are falling off buses. 
Cheers, JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2007, 11:24:54 AM »

JR & BK

Neither I nor any of my family or associates have ever had a wheel come off either in all our combined years in the transportation industry, but we were maintainance  crazy. My cousin used to jack the front of his Autocar up by the frame when not in use to keep the weight off the springs. I also would be interested in how many wheels have come off. How about a poll? How many wheels do we KNOW have come off? How many said wheels do we KNOW came off because of some substance that was used on the lugs or mating surfaces?

BK

As I said before, if you lose a wheel & someone gets hurt, you know it's a lawsuit anyway and if you can't prove it absolutely was no way it was your fault  and that you could not have foreseen the event you are going to lose. Remember the hot Mcdonalds coffee suit...and the idiot that cut his fingers off using his Sears lawn mower to trim his hedges? They both won! We don't have a chance in court no matter what we use on wheels! We're guilty! Get used to it! And, if we are really not guilty, we are probably guilty of something they didn't catch us at! Grin Grin So this is just payback! Grin Grin

Matter of fact, I thought I saw our pics at the post office the other day.........
Old pic though, I had more hair back then.... Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 11:27:59 AM by oldmansax » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2007, 11:38:58 AM »

Jjr, Where else to use? I use it on all of my brake jobs, Where the drum slides on the hub, the bolts that hold on the drum. Also where the wheel slides over the hub. Any of these places that rust will make something hard to remove.  Tom Y   
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