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Author Topic: Revisited: May need a hydraulic fan for my Air to Air  (Read 5761 times)
rv_safetyman
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Jim Shepherd


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« on: March 27, 2007, 12:05:36 PM »

9/23/08:  Hi again folks. I started this thread a while back and wanted to revisit again.  You will see my latest post on page 2.

Jim

>>>>>>original post>>>>>>>>>>>>


Hi folks.  As most of you know, I have been working to get my air to air (charge air cooler) to put cooler air into the engine on long pulls. 

Since I last posted on the subject, I have installed a larger air to air and ducted the air down so that I can pull in outside air and am not fighting the pressure from the huge radiator fan (recall that I installed my cooler on the passenger side as there was no room on the radiator side). 

I am using two large electrical fans, and it looks like they donít move enough air for a long hard pull (donít start in on the two dogs comments <grin>).  I will re-hookup my mister system, but that might not do the job.

So, I may have to go to a hydraulic fan (no way to run a belt drive).  That is probably not too bad, since I need a hydraulic pump for my jacks and donít want to make any modifications to the PS pump circuit (safety).

Where is a good source to pick up the parts?  Would love to get a system that has an electric valve so that I can run on the electric fans part of the time and then kick in the hydraulic fan when I need it.  Pump will have to be a belt driven unit, as I donít think I have a way to drive it off the Series 60.


« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 05:03:28 AM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
í85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
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Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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JackConrad
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73' MC-8 8V71/HT740 Southwest Florida


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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2007, 01:19:31 PM »

Jim,
   Check your email for a link to a place that has a lot of surplus hydraulic stuff.  Jack
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Tim Strommen
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2007, 01:27:53 PM »

Hey Jim,

    I've found that Grainger has a good selection of Hydraulic Motors and Pumps (as well as accessories: Hoses, Valves, Filters, and other components.)

Hope this helps...

Cheers!

-Tim
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2007, 04:13:42 PM »

What you want is already available and you can probably find it for little or nothing. GM busses ran their A/C condenser fan with a hydraulic motor. The pump was belt driven and had an electric clutch. I will try to take a photo of mine and post it by this weekend. I might know where one is but I will have to ask the owner if he will give it to me.

Laryn
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2007, 04:32:49 PM »

Hey Jim

Is that 60 series running hot?
Or are you looking for more performance. (cooler air )

"I am using two large electrical fans, and it looks like they donít move enough air for a long hard pull "   Huh

Hydraulics are a pretty good deal. Easy to direct the power. Northern Hydraulics sells most needed components, along with McMaster Carr, Grainger, Surplus sales, are all good suppliers(please everybody list your most cost effective source).  

Off the top of my head.
Open flow system, close the return valve and direct the flow through the bypass, flow control, motor circuit.

A Pressurized, or normally closed system, has the bypass pressure first, always producing pressure. (and taking horsepower)

Clutch operated pump directly plumbed to fan drive hydraulic fan motor would be easiest.

On a different view, water carries 10 times the conduction value. What size and condition is your radiator and fan drive on that side.

I thought 4 strokes put out less heat (more efficient) than the 2 strokes.

I probably missed the earlier post.  "As most of you know, I have been working to get my air to air (charge air cooler) to put cooler air into the engine on long pulls. "

I plan on a 4 stroke in our Eagle and would like more info.

Thanks
Bill
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Stan
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2007, 05:02:59 PM »

Years ago, a neighbor of mine put a hydraulic fan on his bus and after replacing the fan motor (fan mounted directly to the motor) twice he was advised that he had to have a motor designed for that application because of the end thrust on the motor bearings. He bought a motor from Eagle that they used on their hydraulic fan drives that was satisfactory.
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rv_safetyman
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Jim Shepherd


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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2007, 06:13:13 PM »

Bill, the engine runs cool even under the hard pulls

My problem is the air to air cooler (from the turbo to the intake manifold).  The air seems to get pretty darn hot on long pulls where the turbo boost is up to 25 PSI.  I put one of my temperature sensors on the tubing and it looks like it could be feeding over 200 degree into the engine.

Smarter folks than me (most? Smiley) say that is not good on the engine and really affects power.  I am not sure how to reconcile the same type of thing on a 6V92 that has no cooler and feeds the hot air into the blower where a water to air "cooler" is used to "extract" heat.  I can't believe that the air is much under 200 degrees when the engine is loaded.  Maybe the 6V92 does not care.  Never-the-less, cooler air has to be the goal

Air to air on trucks is out in front of the radiator and gets all the ram affect.

Stan, thanks for the heads-up on the thrust load.  Quite obvious, but I would not have thought about it!

Laryn, that system sounds exactly what I was looking for.  Keep me posted.  If nothing else, I might try the GMC board and see if someone might have the hardware.

Thanks for all the help (as usual!!!)

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
í85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2007, 10:02:22 PM »

What happened to the original belt drive for the A/C condenser on that side-or do you have something now installed in the way?  You might also try reversing the fans and suck the air from the inside and blow it out.  I realize that it is hot from the engine and radiator, but the air coming off the radiator is still a whole lot cooler than the 350 degree air coming from the turbo.  I know with trans coolers, this is one way to also do it.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2007, 05:25:57 AM »

Jim: Apparently you followed all the electric fan properties discussed about a year ago (the good, the bad and the ugly). Involved in research on cooling, maybe you can give me some advice. Working on income tax this past week I came across a receipt for two large electric fans (big enough to cool an 8V71). Do I write those off as R&D or as a charitable donation? <grin>
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skipn
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2007, 07:49:29 AM »

Jim,
 
   I know you have your heart set on an air charged system but I also know that you are a very good fabricator (in the best sense)

  Couple of things
     1. You seem to be getting a large radiant heat transfer to your intake... Can you insulate the whole intake side..increase the air flow thru the in
        the engine compartment. etc.
     2. Have you considered (probably) taking an intercooler from a cat 3406 (a bolt on) and adapting it to your series 60.

   Just some thoughts.

  Skip
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DuaneMC7
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2007, 08:26:42 AM »

Hi Jim ,

If I was going to go with a Hydraulic fan drive I think I would fine a "wet kit" that someone has taken of there truck. I am sure it would bolt right on the side of your 10sp. No more belts or brakets, I think that would be the way to go.

FWIW, Duane 
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Sojourner
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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2007, 09:39:57 AM »

Most of posts are missing point of why Air to Air cooler needed.
Turbo compressed air is at must higher temperature then what it took in ambient temp air.
Always use fresh (coolest) ambient to cool down ďexpandedĒ turboís compressed air to achieve most oxygen per square inch before enter combustion chamber to achieve highest power stroke. Otherwise turbo is doing very little or none boast of power.

The purpose of Turbo is to add more Oxygen as well other gases into combustion chamber.

My suggestion is to reinstall engineís radiator to allow room to install air to air radiator. The fan is already there & frontal area of engine radiator is made for it.

You may have to switch to right side to allow more room due engine's offset to accommodate the thicker set up.....either way will be allot of work. Whatever ways you choose is going to be allot of work. Wish you well.

Electric fan to equal the cfm flow of mechanical fan will result of using more engine's power to run alternator harder than direct mechanical connection.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
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skipn
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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2007, 09:59:35 AM »


  Jerry,
    I agree but looking at what little I could see on his web sight documentation it appears that right after the turbo there is a 90 degree bend with the pressure side of the turbo running right above the exhaust manifold. From there I can't tell but there maybe some more 90 degree bends before it finally gets to the intake manifold. Cool air ups the efficiency granted but where to cool the air is what I was
 wondering about.

   Just my thoughts and it's snowing out side so I could be all wet.

    Skip
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niles500
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2007, 10:56:08 AM »

Stan - I would call it unearned compensation and send 2D's a 1099 - let him explain to the IRS what he did with 'em!
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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2007, 11:27:21 AM »

Jim;
      I know you had wanted to take as much heat load off the radiator as possible but how about mounting the charge air cooler back on the radiator as it was mounted on the truck? I had done alot of research before deciding to put the radiator & fan in the rear like some stick & glue's do. I had talked to Jerry Russell recently about his Eagle & series 60 with radiator, charge air cooler & a/c condenser all mounted in the rear and he tells me it's working great with no heat problems etc. I'm not suggesting that you move it to the rear but if it runs good in the rear with no heating problems I would expect it to be even cooler running on the regular Eagle side mounted radiator hole (the charge air cooler). Just some thoughts.
                                                    Ray
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