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Author Topic: Revisited: May need a hydraulic fan for my Air to Air  (Read 5626 times)
JohnEd
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« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2008, 11:33:44 AM »

MMa2,

I know that the air temp out of a intercooler is not regulated in any way.  I guess the min temp out would be the ambient temp.  That would be an enormous aftercooler to even approach that and impractical, I know.  What I am getting at is "what was the delta temp across your intercooler when you registered that 145 degrees"?   You measured 168 out with an ambient of 122 so could I say that your cooler reduces the outlet temp by 45 degrees below ambient under the same loading?  That seems intuitive to me.  I've been fooled before, I should note.

The compressor/blower in the inlet to a 2 stroke adds heat to the air but I don't know how much.  The After cooler, like the intercooler, reduces the air temp but by how much?  I talked with a DD consultant/engineer and he said that the data I was requesting did not exist except in a engineering lab and he didn't have access to that type of data.  He did volunteer that the MAXIMUM air temp at the charge inlet was 450 degrees(or maybe 425) and that at that temp the engine would quit.  He added that the thing would be dropping to its knees long before it reached that temp.  I hope to shout!

The interesting thing about that to me was that reducing the intake air temp at the valve had a big effect on the power and efficiency of the engine and yet the stock DD setup is to have the turbo dump directly into the blower.  How much power is being missed form a TA engine on a sustained hard pull by not cooling the intake air through an intercooler?

Thanks,

John
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« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2008, 11:47:15 AM »

Hi Jim,
Not having seen your rig or knowing what it looks like inside, is there any way you could use a miter gear and a belt arrangement, or a combination of that and a few U joints to do your fan without hydraulics?
I have a thing against hydraulic fans... yes they certainly work, but they are messy, use LOTS of engine room space, require a big oil tank AND a BIG radiator of their own, and are at least 30% less efficient that a straight gear or belt drive.  I had one on my first bus and eventually re-arranged things to use a miter drive plus belt and U joint shaft... it was a wonderful improvement and REALLY clean install.
Maybe I could visit and give you some ideas.  I HATE hydraulic fan drives!!!!!  Smiley

Gary
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1962 Crown
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dickegler
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« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2008, 01:28:53 PM »

Hi Jim, I have a complete hydraulic fan unit salvaged from an orion 6V92.  Belt drive pump, 26"fan, motor, mount,reservoir, and thermostatic  control.  I can send some pictures if you like.  $XXX complete plus shipping.



Email me for more details.

Dick Egler

Sorry, MAC has a limit on items for sale prices. But maybe Jim will email!

Your Friendly Moderator -- Dallas
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 03:20:45 PM by Dallas » Logged

dick egler  atlanta, in  92 prevost/beaver conversion
Tom Y
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« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2008, 03:17:23 PM »

Jim, This pump is the same as on my L10, direct drive. It has 1 inlet and a primary port ( PS ) and a secondary port ( Hyd fan ). The fan will run if intake air gets to 150 or water temp of 165. I find it hard to agree with the 30 percent hp loss to run. But I do not know, I hear little change in the engine RPM if I turn it on.   Tom Y
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« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2008, 03:18:04 PM »

Another
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Tom Yaegle
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« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2008, 05:09:21 PM »

Wow!  I thought I got good input the first time around and it got even better this time.

Boogie, I too dislike hydraulic, and that is why I have been dragging my feet (that and $$$ plus time).  There is just no practical way to put a mechanical drive in there.

Dick, in the next couple of days (two days later than I wanted to be at an FMCA rally in Little Rock), I will drop you a note, or you can write to me at:  jim at rvsafetysystems dot com.

Don, I currently have two fans on outside and two on the inside (four total).  Run them all all of the time.  They are supposed to be pretty good fans.  They do a good job on all but the big hills.

MM2S, that sounds a lot like the factory Series 60 setup (side by side).  I have a hydraulic jack in the bay ahead of the radiator.  Could probably put an air to air in there if I work at it.  I am not too inclined to reduce my present radiator size (I paid a lot of money to get the best technology and it really works.  My serial number would not help much, since the engine has been reset to 475.  I had not thought of having too much surface area???

Tom C, I really like your solution, but it sounds like cubic dollars.  I do not get any smoke on the big hills.  However, I pull back on the throttle a bit to keep the air temperature down.

I have still not given up on my misters.  That is a cheap way to cheat.  What playing around I have done, it looks like it helps quite a bunch.

Now for one added piece of information.   I have changed from pulling a Durango to a Dodge 3/4 ton 4X4 service truck with utility box and large (and heavy -- I built it heck for stout).  The truck without supplies weighs 7500 pounds and I have probably added 1000 more.   That would put me at about 45K.  I sure have noticed the difference on this trip.

It is sure interesting to see all the comments on what is acceptable air temperature.  We all know that cooler is better, but we don't seem to have good factory information.  I have the OEM Series 90 book and it does not address the issue.  I am not sure how the OEMs go about designing the air to air.

Keep the great responses coming.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2008, 06:55:42 PM »

Heat soak is the issue here.  And the answer is:     http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

Water injection just after the turbocharger and before the intercooler.  You "normally" would not put water injection there, but I don't think it would be good for the blower if you put just up stream.  I have water injection on my One Lap of America race car.  What a HUGE difference.  The water (or water/methanol mix) is injected into the intake manifold only under boost, using spray jets that atomize the water.  The heat instantly vaporizes the water.  That heat energy required to vaporize the water effectively reduces the intake charge air temps.  This is not new technology, but the computers that you use to control the volume, pressure and triggers are now high tech.  $800 for my car's system.  They are perfect for diesel engines which see huge charge air temps due to the high boost levels.

I was able to install lighter, smaller intercoolers on my car but still have 70 more hp due to leaner fuel air ratio and advanced ignition timing. 

These systems do and will work for our engines.  And because of the blower, aftercooler and airbox, the vapor will have longer to vaporize which makes the system even more efficient.

It would be very easy to install a thermistor in a junk/spare/extra airbox cover to get an accurate temp of the charge air.  Then you can see before and after differences in temps.

A water injection system will help a non turbo, supercharged DD engine, just not as much.  The blower doesn't create nearly as much heat because the charge air pressure is much lower.  But it would still help!  It'll even reduce the black smoke from large injectors as the still vaporizing water effectively increase the cylinder pressures during compression ignition.  Think "steam engine".

BTW, these systems were used in airplanes as far back as WW2.  Piston engines, not jets.

Mark
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 07:10:30 PM by OneLapper » Logged

OneLapper
1964 PD4106-2853
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« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2008, 08:42:06 PM »

Hey Jim

   Think about the KISS method.
   Think Mechanical 3406 Cat.
   I'm sorry, but i just had to do this.

Catskinner!
Sonnie & Patti Gray
72 0/5 Eagle 3406 Cat
Pottsboro, Texas
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quantum500
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« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2008, 09:25:39 PM »

Maybe I'm way off base but those temps are not any where near the top.  I understand that you would like to see them lower and for simplicities sake I think water injection may be your best option for many reasons.  To give an idea of what high intake temps are I'll share what I know.  I have a 3412 cat twin turbo industrial power unit without any kind of charge cooler on it.  Its rated at 650hp.  After a good long day running at a decent load it will be running a temp of around 280 to 300 consistently on the intake air.  I'm not saying that is a good thing only that Cat designed and rated this engine accordingly.  Add a aftercooler and a little more fuel and cat rates it at 880hp and temps 100 degrees cooler on the intake, still nearly as hot as what your experiencing.  Now onto the pros of water injection.  When you inject water into the intake before your intercooler you create a cleansing effect that cleans everything down stream.  All that oil residue in the intercooler that over time causes more and more of an insulating effect is no longer a problem.  On any diesel that has an egr valve you will clean the carbon build up out of the intake.  This is a big problem on certain engines!  If you inject enough water you will cool the intake by at least as much as your intercooler.  So you get the benefit of a way cooler charge wich equals more efficiency, the benefits of cleaning your intake whenever your running and increased efficiency from steam combustion.  But wait there is more.  A 50/50 mix of water and methanol can increase cooling capabilities and performance even more and never raise your exhaust temperature in fact it will usually run cooler.  A system like this is easy to build.  Especially in a bus where you have 120v power available.  I've done some research and am in the process of installing one on a 8v71n.  I found a industrial airless paint sprayer that will deliver 12gpm at 2500psi.  With a turboed engine you can set it up with a boost switch that is adjustable, so when you reach a certain psi the pump kicks in and you get some water.  There is something completely new to think about.
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JohnEd
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« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2008, 10:35:02 PM »

Q,

Your info sounds very interesting.  I can't dispute a thing you say and I am prone to believe it all.  My uncle was a flight engineer on Flying Fortresses in WWII.  He said that the water injection was used to cool the charge air so that the engine would take more spark advance and you could lean out the mix that was always set rich on aircooled engines.  The father of a girl I dated in HS said that P51s had a throttle position called Max Military Power.  To reach it you had to hit the throttle with the heal of your hand and break through a pin.  Any plane that came home with the pin broken got a new engine and the old was rebuilt.  That was his lie I am repeating.

Is it true that the meth doesn't preignite on the compression?  That part sounds shaky to me on a D.

You mentioned 12 gallons per minute into the intake.  I have been up a lot of hills that took more than 10 minutes.  I think few carry enuf water to make the entire hill.  Does it take that much?  For what displacement engine?  2 and 4 cycles need the same?

Thank you very much for sharing all that.  A lot of food for thought.

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2008, 12:45:16 AM »

Hey Jim

   Think about the KISS method.
   Think Mechanical 3406 Cat.
   I'm sorry, but i just had to do this.

Catskinner!
Sonnie & Patti Gray
72 0/5 Eagle 3406 Cat
Pottsboro, Texas


Man I just love that ol' chicken haulin' way of think'n'!
As I have said before and will again!

"Walk'n that CAT, and Kick'n' that Possum, Chicken Haulin's Totally Awesome!     Whoop, Whoop pass'n thu! Cluck cluck chicken truck boop, boop!"

Now for those of you who aren't/weren't truckers "chicken trucks" are the big ol' shiney chromed out and lights everywhere trucks that are usually found out in the left lane. (or try'n to get out there!)
And "rooster cruzers" are the really fast ones that are changing states while regular chicken trucks are changing lanes! LOL! Whoop whoop!

Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2008, 04:19:38 AM »

Lots of good information continues.

When I mentioned misters, I was talking about spraying water ON the air to air to facilitate better heat rejection.  I had not thought about water INJECTION into the intake air.  Probably won't go that direction, but the discussion is very interesting.

I am really interested in permissible air inlet temperatures.  I had been told that the air to air should keep the intake air at a max of 50 degrees over ambient (probably a design "rule" that has some operating conditions attached to it -- and allowing for higher temperature for extreme operating conditions).  That would suggest a maximum air temperature of perhaps 160 degrees.  However, I am hearing much higher temperatures.  I am sure that the engine design partly dictates max air temperature.

Sonnie, we will continue our discussion at the Eagle Rally  Grin Grin Grin

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2008, 01:07:49 PM »

Now you are the right track Jim with the 50 degrees differential actuality it is 52.7 degrees.I hated giving up my $2200.00 radiator also but a 4ftx4ft x 7inch core wasn't needed to cool the s60 they take the heat out by turbo boost not like a 2 stroke does with water.Move it to the radiator side in front or on the side of the radiator and let the engine fan do the work and stop trying to work against it a losing battle with auto electric fans    have a great day
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Don Fairchild
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« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2008, 04:59:55 PM »

Jim;

I don't have info for the 60 but I can give you some info for a 6V92 ta 305hp at 2100rpm under load, turbo out temp 330.4 aftercooler out temp 210.5 this is with a three pass jacket water after cooler 168 deg water temp and193 deg oil temp. The turbo we used was a TV7511 with a 1.08 hh the boost pressure was 29psi.

I like the hyd fan set up. onelapper I would suspect that you see more cooling and hp from the methanol than the water injection. not saying water dose not work, but consider that you run aluminum pistons in your hot rod and diesels run cast iron or steel pistons and sleeves. Water and steel does not work well together if you don't believe me look an engine that has blown a head gasket. It will pit the piston the head and the cylinder.

You get more hp and cooling with methanol or alcohol then any other add on liquid.

Don
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Tom Y
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« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2008, 07:11:51 PM »

Jim, The temps I gave for the fan to run are on a Gillig with the Cummins L10. I used the same senors. I would not think a DD was much different.  Tom Y
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Tom Yaegle
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