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Author Topic: Help the newbie please!!  (Read 2623 times)
trey
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« on: April 10, 2007, 03:31:16 PM »

would anyone happen to know of a place in southeast missouri (or the world)where i can find a computer to plug into my 1982 detroit diesel 6v92 d deck. Ive been told i could have bad sensors or something. If anyone knows a good place, i'd could use the help!
thanks
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2007, 04:16:43 PM »

Hi Trey - welcome aboard!  Grin

This is a great group, and I suspect you'll have an answer soon.

Best Regards, Phil
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2007, 04:56:34 PM »

 Hi Trey, like Phil said Welcome aboard.
 There is a good place in Springerfield Mo. It's called Diesel Exchange Inc. There # is 800 343 7355   The web site is  www.dieselexchange.com I hope this is somewhere near you and it helps.


         Pete & Jean
           Fantasy
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2007, 06:52:11 PM »

Trey, any DD dealer can hook you up. All the DDECs have diff plugs, A 2 won't plug into a 3 etc. You don't need a mainframe to check your system, just a hand held reader/programmer. DD has never charged me to pull, print and erase my codes, including changing the settings allowed by DDEC like droop and killing that auto shutdown feature made for dummies. My DDEC2 would shut me down on the RR tracks if I was 2 quarts low on oil. I castrated the computer and now my coach always brings me home. I believe the shutdown codes my unit was comming up with were due to cold and moisture and nothing that throwing money at it would change. If you are full of water and oil and the oil and water pump are working, that is about all it really needs. If it has that and won't run we call that a computer hickup. KILL the auto shutdown feature and the hickups are gone forever.  You will still get a warning light on your dash for a problem and can deal with issues after you are across the RR tracks.
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« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2009, 04:00:56 PM »

Hello evryone, 
 
I'm a newbie to the MAK forum.

I was reading a post reply to a newbie from April 2007 regarding the engine shut down feature in ddec  buses.  I experienced a shut down today.  I checked fluid levels, I checked for contamination, wires etc.  I was able to start it from the rear controls right away but not from the front.  After 10-15 minutes on the shoulder I was able to start it and get underway.  When I got home, 15 minutes later, I found the coolant temp wire was detached from the sensor.  Was the this the culprit?  Was it the shut down feature or is there another issue.   Huh 
 
Rick
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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2009, 05:38:40 PM »

Rick and Trey,

It's not really necessary to have a code reader to diagnose these problems (although it does make things much faster).

You need to get the "codes" to read out from the ECM.  First things first:  make sure your "Check Engine Light" (CEL) and "Stop Engine Light" (SEL) are both working.  When you first turn the "ignition" on, but before you crank the engine, both lights should be illuminated.  If they are not, find them and check the lamps -- you really need these lights working at all times, and you should check to see that they are working every time you start the bus, no different from the oil pressure tell-tale.

Next, root around under the dash or in the front electrical box until you find the diagnostic connector, which is probably a rectangular job with 12 pins (later DDEC uses a round connector -- let me know if that's what you find). Stick a paper clip or other shorting device between pins A and M (they are labeled on the plastic of the connector in tiny letters -- A and M are right next to each other at one end), then turn the ignition on (but do not crank). The Check Engine light will flash out the codes. For example, four flashes, then a short pause, then three flashes, then a longer pause would be a code 43. After the long pause, other codes may follow in the same manner. When the code numbers start repeating you have seen them all.

When you have the codes, post them here, and I can tell you what problem they indicate.  There used to be a chart on the web for this, but the link I had no longer works.

FWIW, I would not disable the shutdowns as others have recommended.  You should have a momentary "override" switch to keep the engine running when the SEL comes on (and it always comes on before a shutdown), which can get you to a safe place.  But without the auto shutdowns, you can blow your engine up, say while you are letting the coach air up while you do your walk-around inspection.  If you are getting codes routinely, you have a problem which should be corrected -- not a "computer glitch."  Even if it is just a sensor problem, it can be causing the injection program to be doing the wrong thing, which is why there is a CEL in the first place.

-Sean
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2009, 06:14:43 PM »

My DDEC 2 with the shutdown out of the loop goes immediately to 1/2 power or less any time it reads a code. I you are not able to realize this and continue to drive farther than the nearest place to get off the road then yes you should follow Seans advice and live with the full shutdown where ever it happens. I transport people I care about, so having my bus shut off in the middle of the freeway at night in fog or on a set of RRXX is not an option for me. Been there, done that.
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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2009, 08:37:15 PM »

My DDEC 2 with the shutdown out of the loop goes immediately to 1/2 power or less any time it reads a code.


Only certain codes cause the power to drop, not all codes.  If it lights the SEL, the power drops, if it just lights the CEL, there is no power reduction.

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I you are not able to realize this and continue to drive farther than the nearest place to get off the road then yes you should follow Seans advice and live with the full shutdown where ever it happens. I transport people I care about, so having my bus shut off in the middle of the freeway at night in fog or on a set of RRXX is not an option for me.


I did not suggest one should live with the shutdown "wherever it happens."  I suggested that there is (or should be) an override switch which you can activate in the event of an SEL code to get you to a safe stopping place.  I have used my override several times to do just that.  I also have a spring brake override for exactly the same reason -- to get me to a safe place in the event of an uncommanded spring brake application.

Having the override capability means that you can continue in spite of an SEL code any time you need to, yet you still have the intended protection in place in the event that you are away from the controls when a Stop Engine event occurs.

-Sean
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2009, 10:33:13 PM »

Rick- welcome to the board.  It is nice to see someone else with a transit.  The MCI Classic is a cousin of my '77 AMGeneral (if you already didn't know).  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2009, 05:59:22 AM »

Sean,

I got codes 45 & 46.  How do I find out what they mean?  Is there a site or ?  Huh

TomC

Thanks for the welcome!  I didn't know that about the AM General.  I just got my bus two months ago but I wish I had discovered buses years ago.  I wasted a bit of change over the years on S&S motorhomes.  My last was a 99 Fleetwood 35' with double slide outs.  Even with its hefty price tag, I was having multiple problems by 18k miles!   The first time I noticed a bus was at an RV park in Florida in the fall of 2007.  It drove in and I was instantly hooked.  It was an early 90's Prevost.  After they settled in and I picked my jaw up off the floor,  I went over and spoke with the owners for a while and became a "busnut".  By May 2008 I got rid of my S&S motorhome headache.  I drove over 5,000 miles to get my bus (my first busnut act).  2500 miles to get there and 2800 miles to get back home.  Of course, I didn't want to waste the time so I took my wife and kids with me and made a few scenic pit stops on the way back home - Mount Rushmore was nice.   Smiley     
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2009, 07:15:56 AM »

Rick- AMGeneral made transit buses from '74-'78 when the government asked if they would make the Hummer instead.  The AMGeneral is based on the Flyer 800 out of Canada-with the big change of the engine being a normal T drive with the Canadian model, and changed to a V drive for U.S. use-the only bus I know that used both V drive and straight drive.  Then Flyer brought out the 900 model which was the same except with a rather boxy front windshield and front.  Both G.M. and MCI bought up the structural rights to make a similar bus with different fronts on it.  I believe the last model made was in '92.  Santa Monica, Ca bus lines has some still running with Series 50's in the back. I looked at one and was convinced I could exchange the engine cradle for the Series 50 running through a straight drive-would make for a close to 10mpg bus (even with the short comings of the Series 50).  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2009, 07:28:14 AM »

TomC,

That's cool info.  Improving fuel economy is on my to do list.  Better fluids, better cooling via a larger radiator or one with more rows, possibly getting rid of the engine driven fan in favor electric ones. 

Rick
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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2009, 08:30:29 AM »

I got codes 45 & 46.  How do I find out what they mean?  Is there a site or ? 


Here is one list on the net: http://www.tpub.com/content/constructiontractors/TM-9-2320-364-34-1/0726250091.htm

What you really want to do, though, is go down to your friendly Detroit distributor and buy the DDEC troubleshooting guide.  It lists all the codes, and a step-by-step diagnostic procedure for each code.

Code 45 is low oil pressure.  This is a stop code; it should light the SEL and, if uncorrected, will cause a shutdown a predetermined time after the light illuminates.

Code 46 is low battery voltage.  This is measured at the power input to the DDEC ECM.

I would not run the engine until these issues are properly diagnosed.  If the oil pressure really is low, you don't want to do any damage.  That said, the low voltage indication could be the root of the problem.  I don't have the troubleshooting manual open in front of me at this moment, but I am guessing that it would be telling us to diagnose and fix the voltage problem first, since readings from all sensors can be corrupted by either incorrect voltage or bad grounds.

If your oil pressure was normal when this happened (assuming you have a separate oil pressure gauge), then I would start by pulling the power harness off the ECM and checking the voltage at the input.  Make sure your batteries are topped up and all contacts are clean.  I'm not familiar enough with your bus to know whether it is a 12- or 24-volt model, but note that the DDEC ECM runs on 12 volts, so on a 24-volt coach, the ECM power will come from the center tap on the batteries.  If you have other 12-volt items connected to a center tap, but no battery equalizer (or the equalizer is malfunctioning), this can cause a low voltage condition at the tap, which will wreak havoc with the DDEC; I had exactly this problem when my equalizer quit once.

Hope this helps.

-Sean
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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2009, 09:35:30 AM »

Sean,

Thanks for the info!  My bus has a 12 volt system.  I believe the #46 code may be old.  My batteries are currently in good shape (holding charge).  I removed, cleaned, and tested them just a few weeks ago.  I cleaned all contact points and made sure all cables were secure when I reinstalled them.  I had a charging issue after I got the bus back in April.  A month ago I discovered a bad connection in the fuse/breaker box at the back of bus.  Since that was resolved, the dash gauge shows 14volts plus when the bus is running.  I've checked the batteries when the bus is off with my portable volt meter.  They always register over 12.25volts.  My bus has four Delco deep cycle batteries.

I've been looking for a place to buy Delo 100 oil.  I'm in central New Jersey.  The bus got 15w 40 at its last oil change and I have to change it.  I drove the bus 2800 miles home with that oil - it was new oil but I new it was not the recommended oil.  My trip home was in early April via the northern most route from Montana to New Jersey.  Temps were low and I drove limited amount of hours daily and took seven days for the trip.  I didn't want to push it hard.  I also kept my speed around 60mph and less on hills. This could be part of the problem.  I don't know but thought is was worth mentioning.

When I change the oil, should I also put in an additive like "Lucas" for protection on initial start up?
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« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2009, 10:53:40 AM »

I believe the #46 code may be old.


If your CEL or SEL light is on with the engine running, then you have active codes.  While the ECM retains historic codes until they are cleared, the only codes you will read out with the method above are the codes that were active during the last run.

Quote
My batteries are currently in good shape (holding charge).  I removed, cleaned, and tested them just a few weeks ago.  I cleaned all contact points and made sure all cables were secure when I reinstalled them.  I had a charging issue after I got the bus back in April.  A month ago I discovered a bad connection in the fuse/breaker box at the back of bus.  Since that was resolved, the dash gauge shows 14volts plus when the bus is running.  I've checked the batteries when the bus is off with my portable volt meter.  They always register over 12.25volts.


All fine, but I would nevertheless check at the ECM harness end.

Quote
I've been looking for a place to buy Delo 100 oil.  I'm in central New Jersey.  The bus got 15w 40 at its last oil change and I have to change it.... This could be part of the problem.  I don't know but thought is was worth mentioning.


15W40 will run at a lower pressure than the recommended SAE40, but I don't think that would be enough to cause a code 45.  Luke at US Coach in Vineland would be happy to change your oil to the correct spec.  I have also had no trouble finding Shell Rotella-T in SAE40 CF-2 at many NAPA stores.

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When I change the oil, should I also put in an additive like "Lucas" for protection on initial start up?


You will get many opinions on this question.  Check the archives, it has been discussed ad nauseam.  My own opinion is to stick with the Detroit recommendations.  Detroit does not recommend you to use any aftermarket additives in the oil -- just use the correct oil to begin with.

Detroit's recommendations regarding fuel and lubrication can be found here:
http://www.detroitdiesel.com/support/on-highway/manuals/lubricants_fuels_coolants/

or at this direct link:
http://www.detroitdiesel.com/support/on-highway/manuals/lubricants_fuels_coolants/OilFuelFilterBulletin_7SE270_010307.pdf

-Sean
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« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2009, 11:43:57 AM »

Sean,

I just turned the bus on and let it warm up.  The sel,cel, trans & battery lights did turn on before start up.  No sel, cel or any other lights turned on while it was running.  I have no temp reading since the sensor is disconnected.  The little tab-type male end snapped off.  It had two of those tabs on the end of the same sensor.  I connected the wire to the second one but it still did not register a temp.  I need to replace the sensor.  If I disconnect the battery, will the codes erase or clear?  or is there another procedure?   
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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2009, 12:43:10 PM »

I just turned the bus on and let it warm up.  The sel,cel, trans & battery lights did turn on before start up.  No sel, cel or any other lights turned on while it was running.  ...  If I disconnect the battery, will the codes erase or clear?  or is there another procedure?   


If the lights are not on, then you have no current problem and no active codes.  If there are still codes stored in the ECM, the only way to clear them is with a Pro-Link (DDR).  Disconnecting the battery generally will not clear the codes.

Quote
I have no temp reading since the sensor is disconnected.  The little tab-type male end snapped off.  It had two of those tabs on the end of the same sensor.  I connected the wire to the second one but it still did not register a temp.  I need to replace the sensor. 


When you say "no temp reading," I assume you mean on a temperature gauge on the dash (as opposed to a digital readout connected to the DDEC ECM, such as a SilverLeaf VMS or a Detroit Pro-Driver).

Be advised that the sender for any gauge on the dash is completely separate from the temperature sensor connected to the ECM.  If there was a problem with the ECM's temperature input, you would have a CEL and a code associated with that.

The temperature gauge on the dash, and its associated sender, is just there as information for you when you are driving (so that, for example, you could choose a lower gear or slower speed while climbing a hill if you observe the temperature climbing into unfriendly territory).  It is not required for proper engine operation, and, as long at the CEL/SEL and engine stop functions are working, it is impossible to overheat your DDEC-equipped engine -- the ECM will shut it down before damage occurs.

That being said, if you are not paying attention to the SEL when it lights (mine is connected to a bell), then you could be in for a rude surprise when the engine shuts down unexpectedly.  It is recommended that as soon as the SEL lights, you hold in the Stop Engine Over-Ride (SEOR) switch while maneuvering the coach to a safe place to stop.  Safe place, BTW, means the shoulder, not the next exit -- many things that will cause a Stop Engine event can destroy the engine before you make it to an exit, such as catastrophic loss of oil pressure.

-Sean
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« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2009, 01:45:35 PM »

Sean,

I was doing about 40mph and accelerating when I noticed the accelerator pedal felt light and the bus started slowing down.  It was still on but there was no throttle response.  The speed continued to drop and as I pulled into the shoulder it turned off.  This all happened in less than 3/10 of a mile.  I was looking at the dash when it was happening but there were no lights on.  I was puzzled.  I thought it was possibly a low fuel issue.  I had a shut down experience before (low voltage) so I glance at my gauges more frequently now.  I checked the fuel level and had more than half a tank (approx 70 gallons). 

I was only on the shoulder about 15 minutes and I was able to restart it.  I was able to restart it immediately from the rear (engine compartment) controls but when I shut it off and went to the front, it would crank but not start.  I'll take a look at the ecm connector. 

You mentioned a Pro-link (DDR).  Are there different models or types?  or different brands?  I'd like to start looking for one and want as much info as I can get. 

BTW, I took a look at your site.  You have an awesome bus!  My wife and I spent a while looking at the videos and pics.  We were considering two mini-frig units for the kitchen.  I had no idea someone made an under counter model side-by-side.  Please, share info!  Where did you find it?  We prefer the counter space as I guess you do.   We actually thought of having a third mini-frig in the living room area.  We decided to go with a two burner stove also.  We never need more than two anyway.  The convec-micro is on our list too (no oven).  We're glad we took a look at you site (it's now bookmarked)!  As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Great job on your bus!  Enjoy! 

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« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2009, 04:18:56 PM »

I was doing about 40mph and accelerating when I noticed the accelerator pedal felt light and the bus started slowing down.  It was still on but there was no throttle response.  The speed continued to drop and as I pulled into the shoulder it turned off.  This all happened in less than 3/10 of a mile.  I was looking at the dash when it was happening but there were no lights on.  I was puzzled.  I thought it was possibly a low fuel issue. ... I checked the fuel level and had more than half a tank (approx 70 gallons). 


OK, well I now have to admit that I am puzzled, too.  That's because, in my experience, the ECM will not shut down the engine or reduce power due to a fault without first lighting the CEL or SEL.  However, I'm more an electrical and house systems guy than an engine guy, and I am sure folks here with way more experience than I on these matters can chime in here with some advice.

I will tell you that on your DDEC-controlled engine, the "throttle" is completely electronic -- it consists of a potentiometer (variable resistor) in a spring-loaded housing attached to the pedal.  So the pedal "feeling light" does not make sense to me, other than that we tend to "feel" things like that based on our other senses telling us things.

It is definitely a possibility that the codes you have are from the distant past, and this problem you just had is, indeed, something like a fuel delivery problem.  Even though you had plenty of fuel, something as simple as a dirty filter can produce these power loss symptoms.  I would check out the fuel supply and return systems as well as the air induction system, and replace all filters as a first step.

Quote
I was only on the shoulder about 15 minutes and I was able to restart it.  I was able to restart it immediately from the rear (engine compartment) controls but when I shut it off and went to the front, it would crank but not start.


The rear controls bypass some of the safety overrides.  I'd have to look at the wiring schematic for your particular bus to know exactly what is bypassed.  I know that on my bus there is a Kysor shutdown system that is bypassed by the rear switch.

Quote
You mentioned a Pro-link (DDR).  Are there different models or types?  or different brands?  I'd like to start looking for one and want as much info as I can get. 


Sorry to say that it is a specialty item and is only made by one company, today Nexiq Technologies (however, if you buy an older unit, it might have a different label on it).  New ones are well over a grand; I've seen them on eBay for as little as $400.  You need the device itself as well as the "cartridge" for your ECM, which sounds to me like a DDEC-II, and the proper connecting cable.  Figure it will cost you $500 or so to get what you need.  You will seldom need this device, so you might find it more cost-effective to borrow one (several folks here on the board have them) or just pay a shop that has one to do what you need.

Quote
BTW, I took a look at your site.  You have an awesome bus!  My wife and I spent a while looking at the videos and pics.  We were considering two mini-frig units for the kitchen.  I had no idea someone made an under counter model side-by-side.  Please, share info!  Where did you find it?


Thank you.  The fridge is actually a marine unit made to run on DC (12 or 24 volts).   It is very efficient but also very pricey -- worth it for us since we almost exclusively boondock, and our 330 watts of solar panels will run this fridge indefinitely with power to spare.  If you are interested, though, it is an RF7500 made by Nova-Kool.

If you don't want to go that pricey, there are a number of 120-volt household undercounter models that some in separate fridge and freezer models, which you can mount side by side.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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