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Author Topic: Turbo HELP needed please  (Read 3646 times)
homermandy
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« on: April 14, 2007, 12:00:06 PM »

1991 Eagle, 6V92TA DDEC2. Just took the bus on a 60 mile trip. Usually can build boost to 21lbs. The trip up was fine, but the trip back today was very strange. I noticed boost wasn't building as good as it usually does and I felt a little vibration when the boost wold build. I could only get about 15 lbs which for my engine is not normal. Power was much lower. I just got back and it is pouring rain so I was wanting to get a heads up help. All other guages were normal. I was thinking of checking all hoses around turbo and air filter. The strange thing is that it ran so great the 1st part of the trip, stayed overnight, then this happened. Thanks in advance for the help. Joe
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1991 Eagle 15
homermandy
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2007, 03:53:45 PM »

One other note. When idling in neutral and revving the engine (as well as 0-5mph), I notice a huge lack of power. Which makes me wonder if my fuel filters may be the problem(I'll change tomorrow) or another fuel issue. Any other items in the fuel system to check? Thanks
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1991 Eagle 15
belfert
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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2007, 04:46:30 PM »

Curious, do the Eagles have boost gauges?  I read folks talking about boost, but I don't have a boost gauge in my Dina naad have no idea what my boost is doing.

Brian
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Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2007, 04:52:21 PM »

Hello homermandy,

If you find that the problem was the filters, I would go a step further and assume your tank is loaded with scum or algea.

I hope I'm wrong cause thats not fun to remove.

Good Luck
Nick-
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2007, 08:06:45 PM »

If the filters don't fix it check the plug ins on the DDEC box. It may have dropped a cylinder or two. No fuel, no boost. A truck engine is a little safer to work on and were it a truck engine I would cold start it and touch my hand to each exhaust port as it warmed up looking for a cold one or two. If its a DDEC issue for some reason it usually happens in pairs. On a bus with belt and safety issues you may need to run it in 30 or 45 second intervals and feel for a cold cylinder with the engine stopped. This is also a good use for your infared temp gun. The turbo won't often cause a vibration unless it grenades. I have lost injectors in both series 60 electronic and Cummins mechanical engines in the last 2 months and it may just be an additional cost of running ULSD. If you find one cylinder cold and not two, I see that as a strong indication of a physical problem with an injector.
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$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2007, 09:21:35 PM »

Are you noticing black smoke with low power? You might want to remove the intake side and the exhaust side of the turbo just to make sure there is no damage or excessive play or either wheel touching the snail housings.
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Jerry32
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2007, 06:24:39 AM »

I lost turbo boost on acummins once and the exhaust manifold had popped a bolt. Jerry
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2007, 07:09:42 AM »

Joe, checking all hoses,pipes and clamps to and from the turbo is the right place to begin your troubleshooting. You can also shut off your batterys, remove the hose to the turbo on the inlet side - the one that connects to your air filter- and check the small wheel inside the housing. Make sure it spins freely and does not bind or rub against the turbo housing.You mention that it's a DDEC controlled engine.
Did the check or stop engine lights come on? -  code for low boost?
I would definitely change the fuel filters next, as you already mentioned.
If your engine cannot make power properly-bad injector, dirty fuel filters, bad fuel pump- then it will not make boost.
Belfert, I ran 6 Eagle Model 15's in the fleet I worked with and they alll had boost guages on the dash. Hope this may help you.

Best of luck with your  troubleshooting.
Sammy  Cool
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homermandy
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2007, 07:32:19 AM »

Thanks for all the suggestions. I am picking up fuel filters in a few hours and will let you know. No check engine lights went on at all. I would imagine if an injector failed, etc it would report a code? Thanks and I'll post this afternoon.
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1991 Eagle 15
homermandy
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2007, 09:20:49 AM »

Will, I think I found the problem. I changed fuel filters, started the engine, and felt all 6 exhaust ports. They were all hot EXCEPT the one on the right rear towards the front of the bus if you are facing the rear engine. Does this sound like an injector gone bad?  If so, is it a hard job and how do I test whether it is or not. I just had in in-frame rebuild last spring with new injectors, rebuilt heads, cylinde kits, jake bridges, etc. Only have about 2K miles on the engine. Thanks for the help.
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1991 Eagle 15
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2007, 11:26:46 AM »

Homer, 2000 miles is not very many, its possible that an adjustment nut has backed off or tightened up on that cylinder. (Shop booboo). Especially since its in the back where its least accessable to adjust and lock down. Diesel engines also break rocker arms and bend push tubes. If it were a mechanical engine and nothing was bent or broken I would replace the injector. I also have DDEC2 and that is the wild card. If the "electronic" injector is not getting a signal from the ECM, its not going to fire. (Pinched wire, loose wire, broken wire, loose connection). Our new fuel is described as "very dry". That translates to low or no lubericity. Fortunately for us and our injectors there is a man in Riverside California who many years ago was faced with keeping his truck fleet running in extreme heat/desert conditions and he formulated products to stop gears from burning up, seals from drying out, as well as pistons and injectors from seizing. Forrest Lucas sells these products under the name Lucas oil today and the fuel conditioner is around $20 per gallon. If your DDEC2 seized an injector its too late for that one, but for everyone else, its not a good time to leave home without it. A gallon treats about 400 gallons of fuel if I remember right, cheap insurance.
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"Ammo Warrior" Keepers Of The Peace, Creators Of Destruction.
Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
homermandy
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2007, 01:25:25 PM »

Well, I popped off the valve cover and took a look. It looks pretty complicated in there. I have jacobs parts in there as well. Is there a simple way to check voltage to injectors from the DDEC computer? I am probably going to have to take it to a DD service shop to fix the injector. I'd rather not unless someone else has agood idea for me:) Thanks
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1991 Eagle 15
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2007, 02:05:18 PM »

You may be able to check some continuity. I think if nothing looks loose its probably still something loose. Is it safe to move the wires around with it running? You should know right away if it picks up that cylinder. When you hang an injector in a diesel, it can sound like a rod knocking. I think maybe yours just isn't working.
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"Ammo Warrior" Keepers Of The Peace, Creators Of Destruction.
Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
homermandy
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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2007, 03:31:47 PM »

Ok, here's the latest. I checked the 4 wires from the DDEC to the injectors. I wasn't sure what I was finding as there is a sort of tandem series of wires as the 1st one enters the rocker area. I checked continuity from each pin of the connector, and it beeped on each terminal in the rocker cover area.  It also beeped from each pin on the connector to all other pins on the connector. Anyways, I got the same coninuity behavior on all 3 injector points. So now I am lost. I'd really like to not bend over and pay probably $500 or so to fix the problem:)
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1991 Eagle 15
lloyd
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« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2007, 04:28:45 PM »

I would try checking continuity across the two connections on the injector (with the wires off the injector) that is not working, you should have a reading. If there is no reading the soleniod has failed, which means the injector must be replaced. How long of a warrenty did you get when they replaced the injectors?
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ArtGill
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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2007, 07:12:25 PM »

I had an EXPERIECE with my DDEC 2 on the way home from Arcidia.  Two injectors and 2K$ later they found a the plug loose on the DDEC that feeds the injectors and I think the boast preasure sensor is in the same plug.  If the DDEC doesn't see boast preasure it will limit the amount of fuel that the injectors can feed the engine.  The injector can be checked with the handheld reader that most diesel truck shops have.  Pay to have it checked with the handheld and then make the decision to take it home and do it yourself or have a shop of your choice do what is needed.  Just make sure they have a two cycle experienced mechnic.  The Fort Pierce DD only had one.

Wish you luck and please let us know what you find.

Art
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homermandy
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2007, 10:15:38 AM »

Thanks. I saw your Arcadia story a while back. Very interesting.The local DD service facility estimates 3-5hours of labor + parts, so I'd be looking at $500-$800 bill. So, I think I will look a little more at the wiring and then pull the injector myself to take in for testing.  Any hints on removing the injector? I have jakes installed and it looks like some hardware sits over the injector area. I just want to make sure I don't need to worry about anything major when I remove the injector. Thanks
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1991 Eagle 15
homermandy
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2007, 03:06:07 PM »

Anyone near Dayton or Cincinnati Ohio who wants to take on the job:) Willing to pay market rate. Thanks
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1991 Eagle 15
homermandy
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2007, 04:12:14 PM »

OMG. I found the problem. I am posting a pic of it. I think it is called a pushrod which has snapped. It looks like it connects to the arm which controls the injector. How do I replace the pushrod? Simple procedure?
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1991 Eagle 15
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2007, 08:06:12 PM »

Homer, Yes its not to hard to change the push tube. I do no have expertise with your engine but in general this is what to do. Get the broken push tube out, hopefully you don't have to remove the pan. Determine what tube is going to be replaced, intake, exhaust, injector. Use your engine number to get the proper replacement part. I don't know how your timing marks are read or where they are located, so get a book and find out.  Learn the firing order and roll the engine over by hand. When each cylinder reaches top dead center the valves will be closed. (You can feel clearance on both intake and exhaust valves by wiggiling them). Roll the engine thru and just follow the overhead thru the firing order until you come to the hole that needs a new push tube. Seat the new tube on the cam follower and adjust the clearance to DD specs, lock the jam nut, recheck the clearance and put it back togather. Something caused your problem. Is the jam nut loose? Is the Jake set to the proper clearance? This should not have happened with only 2000 miles on a rebuild so you are going to have to check all the valves, check all the jam nuts, and check all the jakes for proper adjustment before you pass the next DD shop at 75 MPH!
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"Ammo Warrior" Keepers Of The Peace, Creators Of Destruction.
Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
Dallas
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« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2007, 03:10:40 AM »

Not to worry about intake valves on a 92 series-- there ain't none!  Wink
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« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2007, 09:42:02 PM »

Well, I got some for sale! If you want the bridge, I''ll give them to you.
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"Ammo Warrior" Keepers Of The Peace, Creators Of Destruction.
Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
homermandy
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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2007, 08:33:50 AM »

Since the threaded portion of the rod is gone, it looks like the tool to compress the spring cannot be used. Any hints on how to compress the spring to remove the retaining clip? Thanks
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1991 Eagle 15
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« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2007, 08:18:40 PM »

Homer, I think you mean the valve spring. If you roll the engine over until the damaged hole is at top dead center you should have clearance.
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"Ammo Warrior" Keepers Of The Peace, Creators Of Destruction.
Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
homermandy
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« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2007, 07:33:28 AM »

Actually I mean the pushrod itself. It is broken on the shaft. I need to compress the spring in the tube that the pushrod for the injector sits in. The GM tool is like a socket and it slides over the rod, a washer and nut are put on and it it tightened on the rod to compress the spring in the hold. Since the thread is gone, I need to find another way to compress the spring in the hole. It is stout, so I am thinking a hand jack wedged in the engine area compressing a small rod so I can remove the lock ring.
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1991 Eagle 15
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« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2007, 09:06:17 AM »

Hello hm.

With only 2000 miles on it, I'd have a try at the shop that did the work and see if they'll make good.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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homermandy
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2007, 10:07:04 AM »

Problem is I had the work done in Nashville and live in Ohio and it was over 1 year ago(I know, I didn't drive it much last year:)
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1991 Eagle 15
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« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2007, 01:17:26 PM »

Joe,  Bigger item to consider - why did it break?
Don't want it to happen again - seized injector?, rocker arm seized to shaft?, etc.
Jakes should come off, rocker arms,shaft and bolts too.
If you can get the cam follower out, I'd install a new cam follower,spring,pushrod,rocker arm,etc.
Inspect camshaft lobe once follower is out. Look at lobe and have someone bar the engine over very SLOWLY, so you can check the cam lobe.
Yes, it's a bit of work and critical procedures must be followed to make a positive repair.
Call the guy that did your rebuild. Maybe he'll work with you if a reputable shop takes a look at it for you.
Best of luck with your repair.
Sammy  Cool




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« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2007, 06:48:10 PM »

Homer, How about a piece of wood and a big screwdriver. Would a long socket slip over it for an extension?
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"Ammo Warrior" Keepers Of The Peace, Creators Of Destruction.
Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
homermandy
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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2007, 05:52:47 AM »

Well, I broke down and am taking to a local DD service center. They have a few 2 stroke guys in house. I take it in Tuesday morning and will keep you posted. Thanks
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1991 Eagle 15
homermandy
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« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2007, 05:02:09 AM »

Upate:
 Diagnosed as stuck injector which caused pushrod to break. Needs new injector, some springs, pushrod, and a few other items. Probably about $1200 repair. Wish I was a mechanic:)
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1991 Eagle 15
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« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2007, 08:50:11 AM »

Pretty cheap considering you'll need a new injector without core since the old one is toast. New injectors for electronic engines are around $2000 with no core.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2007, 09:48:07 PM »

Homer, I think if you are in a reputable shop, you will get a core credit for a hung injector. The new fuel is very dry and you are going to have to use additives. My 92 is on the border line of seizure with out additives but I think I saved it.
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"Ammo Warrior" Keepers Of The Peace, Creators Of Destruction.
Gold is the money of Kings, Silver is the money of Gentlemen, Barter is the money of Peasants, Debt is the money of Slaves.

$1M in $1000 bills = 8 inches high.
$1B in $1000 bills = 800 feet high.
$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
homermandy
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« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2007, 03:32:14 PM »

Well, I got the core. Took 8.5 hrs of labor @$85/hr to inspect damage, replace pushrod and injector, and replace 2 cooling belts. Parts about $550. Runs great now. Scary how a single injector can cause the engine to ride so bad with very low power. Regarding the additive NJT, what do you recommend? Thanks for all the help.
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1991 Eagle 15
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