Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
July 29, 2014, 04:01:45 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you had an E-Mag Subscription: It will not turn yellow, get musty, dusty, and mildewed or fade.
   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Jakes in a C3  (Read 3081 times)
Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
1989, MCI 102C3, 8V92T, HT740, 06' conversion FMCA# F-27317-S "Wife- 1969 Italian/German Style"
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4857


Nick & Michelle Badame


WWW
« on: May 21, 2007, 05:39:57 AM »

Hi Members,

After my weekend venture to North Western PA, and being diverted off I-80 because of a bus accident.

I really got a wake up call on some very steep decents down mountains on Rt 322.....

Going up a mountain is no problem, the 8V92 flattens them out.. man, I had my heart in my mouth quite a few times

They have signs that say, Trucks 35 mph..  Yea, try keeping that speed with no Jakes and your brakes will be gone

in no time. I know I overheated my brakes a couple times.   All in all, it's pretty scary wondering if your brakes will hold!

Question, What kinda job is it installing Jakes in my bus?       "DD 8V92T  HT-740"

Thanks in advance
Nick-
Logged

Whatever it takes!-GITIT DONE! 
Commercial Refrigeration- Ice machines- Heating & Air/ Atlantic Custom Coach Inc.
Master Mason- Cannon Lodge #104
https://www.facebook.com/atlanticcustomcoach
www.atlanticcustomcoach.com
belfert
Guest

« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2007, 06:54:06 AM »

I recall reading some posts about Jake brakes very recently and I thought someone (TomC maybe) saying that Jakes are not very effective on two stroke diesels.
Logged
Gary W
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 125



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2007, 07:07:11 AM »

Hi Nick
I had jakes installed on my 6V-92, they work great as I live in British Columbia lots of grades. I got a used set from a wrecker for $800 and paid $800 to have them installed.

Gary
Logged
RJ
Former Giant Greenbrier Owner
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2780





Ignore
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2007, 07:12:10 AM »

Brian -

Whoever made that statement doesn't have a lot of "seat time" in a bus equipped with a two-stroke and a jake.

IIRC, his comments were about an 18-wheeler loaded to 80,000 lbs, a whole different scenario compared to a 30K bus.

Back in my charter driver days, I used to put 80K/year on buses with jakes, working CA, OR, NV, & AZ.  Believe me, jakes work fine on two-strokes.  Example:

WB I-80 from Reno NV to Sacratomato CA has over 70 miles of 4, 5 and 6% grades once you crest Donner Summit.  Flip the jake on at the summit, and the coach would settle in between 60 - 62 mph all the way down the mountain, never once having to touch the regular service brakes.  Unless, of course, traffic conditions required you to.  But your brakes were cool in these situations - not hot from having to control your downhill speed.

Same thing coming off the Grapevine either NB or SB on I-5 - a jake-controlled 60 - 62 mph all the way down the hill, never touching the service brakes.

Next time somebody claims a jake doesn't work with a two-stroke, ask them how much time they've had behind the wheel of a bus equipped with one.



Nick -

Spend the $$ to have a jake installed.  It's well worth it, in terms of safety.

Just make sure you've got a good two-stroke technician doing the installation, as some of the set-up is tricky (fast idle buffer switch, for example).

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
Logged

RJ Long
PD4106-2784 No More
Fresno CA
TomC
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6681





Ignore
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2007, 07:18:17 AM »

You need an extra 4 inch clearance (realistically) to clear the higher valve covers.  Other than that, the Jake Brakes for the 8V-71 and 8V-92 are the same, so locating a set should not be a problem.  What needs to be installed- Installing the Jakes over the rocker arms; wiring the two heads with individual wiring so you have the option of running just one head or both heads.  As to the gas pedal micro switch, there are two options for this.  One is just running a simple micro switch on the gas pedal that is normally closed, so when the gas pedal is released and pushes the micro switch it turns on the electricity for the Jakes.  The disadvantage of this is the possibility of the Jakes still activated at idle and stalling the engine.  The other better way is to install the idle switch on the buffer on the governor on the engine (I assume you have a mechanical engine?).  This usually replaces the fast idle solenoid.  There are kits that you can incorporate both, you'll have to ask your Detroit dealer.  The advantage to this is the Jakes will only be activated at 'no fuel' on the governor-which will be during coasting and also if you over speed the engine, but not at idle.
The easy way to wire, is you'll need three wires from the engine to the drivers seat.  If you don't have that, just get a 50ft extension cord and use it.  I recently bought 5 three wire 50ft cords of different colors and ran them the length of the bus (a bit of a pain, but their in now).  What I did was to cut off the socket side leaving a foot of cord.  Ran the wire with the cut end to the drivers compartment.  Then in the engine compartment mounted the plug side of the cords to the bus and then plugged in the other ends to the engine.  This will facilitate not having to cut anything if you have to remove the engine-just unplug it and since their different colors-easy re hooking up.  I just tape the joints to keep dirt and water out.
With those three wires, first you'll need an ignition switched power source in the engine compartment.  Then run an inline fuse (I think 20amp) and run that power source through the governor switch to the dash.  Then you can either run two switches-one on/off, one high/low, or a single pole double throw off-on-on switch. 
When I first had the Jakes installed, they were conservatively adjusted so when coming down the Grapevine (5 miles of 6%) I would have to tickle the brakes about 5 times, but no overheating issues. Now that Don Fairchild has precision adjusted them tight, going down the grade is now a no brake decent, in fact I have to switch it in between one and two heads, or I'll slow down too much!  Install them, and enjoy a no white knuckle mountain driving!!  Good Luck, TomC
Logged

Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
DrivingMissLazy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2634




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2007, 07:26:32 AM »

Nick, with your demonstrated capabilities, I do not think you would have any problem installing a set of Jakes. Even the buffer switch adjustment is a piece of cake in my opinion.

And please, do not listen to anybody who indicates that jakes do not work great on an 8V92. My coach weighed over 40,000 pounds and I towed a Tahoe up and down every pass on the west coast as well as all the passes on the east and i guarantee the Jakes eliminated the use of the service brakes in 99% of the cases and also allowed you to comfortably maintain a higher speed.

The above is based on the fact that I lost my Jake Brake operation during one trip to New England and believe me it made a believer out of me. I can assure you it did not take long for me to repair the problem once I got back home.

Again do not pay any attention to the nay sayers. If the Jakes did not help them, then they were not installed and adjusted properly.
Richard
Logged

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride
DrivingMissLazy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2634




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2007, 07:33:49 AM »

Tom C posted while I was typing, but I do agree with him 100%. I recommend the buffer switch in the rear on the governor and I also recommend installing two of the small cube type relays in the rear to control the actual Jake solenoid operation. That way the current going thru the cable from the front to the rear and also thru the buffer switch is actually only a few milliamperes instead of several amps. It worked for me!
Richard

BTW, the Jakes would not stall my engine at idle. Not enough oil pressure to operate the Jakes. Might be different on engines where more oil pressure is available at idle.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 07:37:04 AM by DrivingMissLazy » Logged

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride
belfert
Guest

« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2007, 08:39:08 AM »

I went and looked up the old thread.  I thought maybe TomC had posted the comment about jakes not working well on a 2 stroke Detroit, but it was someone else.

I have Jake brakes on my Series 60, but of course it is four stroke.  I would personally never buy another bus without Jake brakes or an electric retarder.
Logged
H3Jim
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1398


1995 Prevost H3-41, series 60, B500 Allison




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2007, 08:45:36 AM »

If I was adding one, I'd seriously look into a Telma retarder.  Gary (boogie the cat) talks so highly of them.  Might be worth a look.
Logged

Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

Travel is more than the seeing of sights, it is a change that goes on, deep  and permanent, in the ideas of living.
Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
1989, MCI 102C3, 8V92T, HT740, 06' conversion FMCA# F-27317-S "Wife- 1969 Italian/German Style"
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4857


Nick & Michelle Badame


WWW
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2007, 09:07:39 AM »

All Great reply's Guy's!

And I'm learning some more about them now...Thanks!

Richard, Thanks for the vote of confidence but, maybe not a challange I'm ready for yet!!

Jim, telma retarder is also intresting, Does anyone know of a installation simmular to mine?

Tom, your giving me some very good info. Thanks!

At this point, Jakes are sounding affordable since my engine and drive train are fairly new.

Next question....Who can undertake this job for me?  I'm ready!

Nick-
Logged

Whatever it takes!-GITIT DONE! 
Commercial Refrigeration- Ice machines- Heating & Air/ Atlantic Custom Coach Inc.
Master Mason- Cannon Lodge #104
https://www.facebook.com/atlanticcustomcoach
www.atlanticcustomcoach.com
DrivingMissLazy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2634




Ignore
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2007, 09:16:47 AM »

Nick et al, one more piece of advice from someone who has been there and done that.

Make sure the engine is up to operating temperature when you adjust the valve lash and the buffer switch. A few thousands of swell in the steel when the engine heats up can make a significant difference in the operation of the Jakes.

I actually decreased the recommended valve clearance by about .003-4 thousands of an inch. From .059 to a loose .055. That really made a significant improvement and my old time DD mechanic said there was still plenty of clearance for the valves. Ran many thousands of miles like that and no apparant harm to the engine. Again, do it hot.
Richard
Logged

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride
Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
1989, MCI 102C3, 8V92T, HT740, 06' conversion FMCA# F-27317-S "Wife- 1969 Italian/German Style"
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4857


Nick & Michelle Badame


WWW
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2007, 09:21:01 AM »

Hi Nick
I had jakes installed on my 6V-92, they work great as I live in British Columbia lots of grades. I got a used set from a wrecker for $800 and paid $800 to have them installed.

Gary

Gary and others,
Where do I start looking for a set of Jakes?
e-bay.. maybay, lol...
Nick-
Logged

Whatever it takes!-GITIT DONE! 
Commercial Refrigeration- Ice machines- Heating & Air/ Atlantic Custom Coach Inc.
Master Mason- Cannon Lodge #104
https://www.facebook.com/atlanticcustomcoach
www.atlanticcustomcoach.com
Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
1989, MCI 102C3, 8V92T, HT740, 06' conversion FMCA# F-27317-S "Wife- 1969 Italian/German Style"
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4857


Nick & Michelle Badame


WWW
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2007, 09:33:26 AM »

Brian -

Whoever made that statement doesn't have a lot of "seat time" in a bus equipped with a two-stroke and a jake.

IIRC, his comments were about an 18-wheeler loaded to 80,000 lbs, a whole different scenario compared to a 30K bus.

Back in my charter driver days, I used to put 80K/year on buses with jakes, working CA, OR, NV, & AZ.  Believe me, jakes work fine on two-strokes.  Example:

WB I-80 from Reno NV to Sacratomato CA has over 70 miles of 4, 5 and 6% grades once you crest Donner Summit.  Flip the jake on at the summit, and the coach would settle in between 60 - 62 mph all the way down the mountain, never once having to touch the regular service brakes.  Unless, of course, traffic conditions required you to.  But your brakes were cool in these situations - not hot from having to control your downhill speed.

Same thing coming off the Grapevine either NB or SB on I-5 - a jake-controlled 60 - 62 mph all the way down the hill, never touching the service brakes.

Next time somebody claims a jake doesn't work with a two-stroke, ask them how much time they've had behind the wheel of a bus equipped with one.



Nick -

Spend the $$ to have a jake installed.  It's well worth it, in terms of safety.

Just make sure you've got a good two-stroke technician doing the installation, as some of the set-up is tricky (fast idle buffer switch, for example).

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink

Hi Russ,
You and Tom talk about that "grapevine" on I-5.
This RT 322 had a decent that sorta pictures in my mind of what you discribe.
At the top, I was able to see the many circles that were to come. at that point the decent
didn't look that bad until thoose sharp turns at the bottom of the steepest drops scare the s**t
out of you! That brake smell is ok for a bit....but after a couple times it quickly changes to a awful stintch..
and then you can notice serious brake fade.
Nick-
Logged

Whatever it takes!-GITIT DONE! 
Commercial Refrigeration- Ice machines- Heating & Air/ Atlantic Custom Coach Inc.
Master Mason- Cannon Lodge #104
https://www.facebook.com/atlanticcustomcoach
www.atlanticcustomcoach.com
DrivingMissLazy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2634




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2007, 09:43:34 AM »

Nick, there are grades in Tennessee and in New England that are as bad as the grapevine on I-5 in California in my opinion. I have traversed all of them several times as well as the other ones in Northern California and the Rockies. I do not remember ever smelling brakes on any of those grades while using the Jake. I know if I started smelling brakes I would be stopped at the next pull off till they cooled down and then proceed down the rest of the grade in a lower gear.

 Unfortunately sometimes there is no lower gear to use. I could not get my Eagle with auto to stay in first gear, even with Jakes, when coming out of some of the California back roads and it was really a problem. It would shift out of first at about 15 mph and that was just too fast for some of the passes.
Richard
Logged

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride
Brian Diehl
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 980




Ignore
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2007, 10:28:55 AM »

While you didn't mention any tranny problems .... you may be interested in this old thread ...


http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=883.msg12267#msg12267
Logged
DrivingMissLazy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2634




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2007, 10:38:46 AM »

Brian, what a great idea and I had forgotten your writeup.
I would like to incorporate that in the Help section of this board so it does not get lost again. Any suggestions how to do it and then be able to find it?
Thanks, Richard

Quote
author=Brian Diehl link=topic=4242.msg38628#msg38628 date=1179768535]
While you didn't mention any tranny problems .... you may be interested in this old thread ...


http://http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=883.msg12267#msg12267
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 10:40:17 AM by DrivingMissLazy » Logged

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride
JackConrad
Orange Blossom Special II
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4446


73' MC-8 8V71/HT740 Southwest Florida


WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2007, 10:48:46 AM »

Nick,
   From what I've seen of Telma retarders (on fire engines), our driveshafts are not long enough and not enough HEAVY framing adjacent to the driveshaft to take the torque produced by the Telma.  Jack
Logged

Growing Older Is Mandatory, Growing Up Is Optional
Arcadia, Florida, When we are home
http://s682.photobucket.com/albums/vv186/OBS-JC/
Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
1989, MCI 102C3, 8V92T, HT740, 06' conversion FMCA# F-27317-S "Wife- 1969 Italian/German Style"
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4857


Nick & Michelle Badame


WWW
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2007, 10:54:23 AM »

While you didn't mention any tranny problems .... you may be interested in this old thread ...


http://http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=883.msg12267#msg12267


Hi Brian,
It seemed that when I downshifted, it sounded like I would be over reving the engine.
Maybe I was just unfamiluar with how to do that.
I'm going to keep reading that thread
Nick-
Logged

Whatever it takes!-GITIT DONE! 
Commercial Refrigeration- Ice machines- Heating & Air/ Atlantic Custom Coach Inc.
Master Mason- Cannon Lodge #104
https://www.facebook.com/atlanticcustomcoach
www.atlanticcustomcoach.com
DrivingMissLazy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2634




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2007, 11:14:11 AM »

Nick, I do not think it will downshift until a safe RPM is reached. I know that even if I pulled mine down to a lower gear it would not downshift until a certain speed was reached and that never had the engine over 21-2200 rpm.
Richard


While you didn't mention any tranny problems .... you may be interested in this old thread ...


http://http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=883.msg12267#msg12267


Hi Brian,
It seemed that when I downshifted, it sounded like I would be over reving the engine.
Maybe I was just unfamiluar with how to do that.
I'm going to keep reading that thread
Nick-
Logged

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride
luvrbus
Guest

« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2007, 11:15:22 AM »

Nick if you buy jakes from someone make sure they have 71-92A stamped on the housing on the top because that the ones that works on a 8v92 engine
Logged
prevost82
82 Prevost 8V92ta 6 speed
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 555


82 Prevost Marathon XL




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2007, 12:03:57 PM »

Nick ... Luke might be the closest one to install ... like many have said you need someone how know 2 strokes to set them up or they don't waork worth a dam
Logged
Sammy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 523




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2007, 02:07:03 PM »

Nick, check out this link - http://jakebrake.com/support/parts-and-service-literature.php?engine_mfr=3&engine_model=28&jacobs_product=25
Should have some answers to your questions.
Hope it helps.
Sammy  Cool
Logged
Gary W
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 125



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2007, 04:51:52 PM »

Nick
I found a set at a local truck wrecker, I got the high covers and all related parts for $800. That was three years ago. Try HB Industries they advertise them on their web site. Here is the link.

http://www.hbindustries.ws/

Gary
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 04:56:51 PM by Gary W » Logged
Brian Diehl
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 980




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2007, 07:44:15 PM »

Brian, what a great idea and I had forgotten your writeup.
I would like to incorporate that in the Help section of this board so it does not get lost again. Any suggestions how to do it and then be able to find it?
Thanks, Richard

How about copying my reply where I post the solution?  You could title it something like:  "Manual Torque Converter Lockup Modification"

Would that work?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 07:47:52 PM by Brian Diehl » Logged
Brian Diehl
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 980




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2007, 07:47:21 PM »

Hi Brian,
It seemed that when I downshifted, it sounded like I would be over reving the engine.
Maybe I was just unfamiluar with how to do that.
I'm going to keep reading that thread
Nick-

One solutiont to the "How fast is my engine turning" question is something others have posted before.

Manually put your transmision in 1st.  Run the bus up to the govenor and make note of the speed.
Shift to 2nd and do the same.
Proceed through each gear noting the MPH when the motor stops speeding up. 
Once you have all the split points you will know at what maximum speed you can shift down into each gear.  This should give you the confidence you need to know if you are over speeding the engine or not.

Of course, do this all in a safe and courteous manner (not that you wouldn't). Wink
Logged
Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
1989, MCI 102C3, 8V92T, HT740, 06' conversion FMCA# F-27317-S "Wife- 1969 Italian/German Style"
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4857


Nick & Michelle Badame


WWW
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2007, 08:04:12 PM »

Nick
I found a set at a local truck wrecker, I got the high covers and all related parts for $800. That was three years ago. Try HB Industries they advertise them on their web site. Here is the link.

http://http://www.hbindustries.ws/

Gary


Thanks for the link Gary!
Nick-
Logged

Whatever it takes!-GITIT DONE! 
Commercial Refrigeration- Ice machines- Heating & Air/ Atlantic Custom Coach Inc.
Master Mason- Cannon Lodge #104
https://www.facebook.com/atlanticcustomcoach
www.atlanticcustomcoach.com
niles500
Niles500
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1184


ROSIE




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2007, 10:28:58 PM »

As has been said most recently - TomC is a concientous and totally awesome poster of the facts - I would follow his instructions TO THE LETTER - As to the 2 stroke 8v92, Nick I probably outweigh you by 10k (GVW - 46k+) - Jakes on the 2 stroke 8v92 work fine - 2 speed Jakes on the 2 stroke 8v92 work twice as fine - maintaining your speed on a downgrade is as simple as flipping a switch - HTH - or more perfectly, Hope TomC's info helps -
Logged

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")  

- Niles
JerryH
Guest

« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2007, 08:39:47 PM »

Belfert:

I have Jakes on DD8V71 ... wouldn't want it any other way.
Coming down hills from State College, or I-40 from NC to TN ... love my Jakes.

Jerry H.

I recall reading some posts about Jake brakes very recently and I thought someone (TomC maybe) saying that Jakes are not very effective on two stroke diesels.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!