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Author Topic: Scenicrusier and engine start up procedures  (Read 2994 times)
Michael_e
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« on: June 11, 2007, 12:41:36 PM »

Well, it's been a long time since posting. Numerous challenges behind me like the heart attack thing, resolving a lot of family issues, and of course, getting layed-off from work. The being layed-off isn't so bad, lot's of time to work projects, but the pay scale really sucks. LOL!!!
Anyway, getting refocused on the Scenicrusier! I'm at the point now where i get to rewire everything, and i do mean everything from the front to the back. I don't think it will be too bad if i just break it down into managable groups like marker lights, headlights, brake & tail lights...you get the idea. I've got a couple of simple wiring books but have always felt somewhat unsure about this stuff. I DO know to not let the smoke out or what ever it is will never work again. I hope to be posting some pics as questions come up.
Now about the start up question...Bus has a 8V92TA and 754 Allison. After getting the required electrical circuits connected, check water and oil levels and give it a go???
Finally, couple of Scenicrusier questions; I don't know if it was heat/bright sun, but the large back glass now has a crack that is spreading. Know where i might find a replacement or ideas on how to build a custom rear window? Lastly, i thought i remember reading a thread about 4 or 5 Scenicrusier owners getting together for a rally/run. Does anyone have a link to that thread?
Mike in Parker...
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1955 GM Scenicrusier, 8V92TA & Allison 754. Totally rewiring all 12v systems and lots of questions.
tekebird
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2007, 01:40:17 PM »

The Scenicruiser road trip already took place....can't find the link but I am sure someone here has it

Rear Window.......made of unobtanium........compound curves on all three pieces

Factoid.  IIRC there was a scenicruiser sales brochure that showed the 4501 having 5 miles of wire in it from the factory

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Stan
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2007, 01:45:00 PM »

Try a call to Knutson in Gila Bend, Az. 928-683-2553. He had the remains of several 4501 buses in his yard.
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Len Silva
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2007, 02:11:21 PM »

Isn't the Scenic rear window the same as a 4104 (also unobtainable)?

Len
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2007, 03:39:13 PM »

No the scenic is smaller than the 04....but yes the 04 is made of unobtanium as well.

the wise 04 owner would be wise to buy the one complete rear set (used) that is available presently.

great insurance policy......in fact if yours breaks you can sell yours to the insurance company at a tidey profit
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roadrunnertex
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2007, 05:03:16 PM »

Scenicruiser rear window. Huh
The Scenicruiser rear window and the 2 small "D" windows are very hard to find and there are some out there for sale.
What is harder to locate is the rubber seal the seal is a special seal for the Scenicruiser rear windows.
The glass is thicker than standard glass.
You might try Tom McNally for a Scenicruiser rear window he can be reached at
tbonemcnally@hotmail.com
jlv Grin
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Michael_e
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2007, 08:06:01 PM »

Thanks for all the replys so far. I'll try the contacts. How hard would it be to fabricate a new window frame?

Any thoughts on restarting a detroit that has been sitting for awhile?

Mike in Parker
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kyle4501
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2007, 08:07:26 PM »

Good to hear you are back on the scenicruiser!  Grin

There are a couple of Yahoo groups that might interest you:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Scenicruiserdepot/

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Scenicruiser21/

Too bad about the rear window  Cry The last one I've heard about was at Ted's in Williams CA but it wasn't yet for sale as he was holding it for one he was restoring.

One of mine has 1/4" plastic. From the ground, it looks GREAT, from inside, not so much. The problem with the glass is price, ~$500+ for the smaller front upper windshields is more than most want to spend just for spares. If you try to make just one set, the set up charges kill it.

Is yours a conversion or still seated? If a conversion, you'll be able to leave out numerous circuts that were for the passangers.

 Good luck with your ole girl!

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NJT 5573
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2007, 08:29:59 PM »

Mike, If it were mine I would just start it up.
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2007, 08:39:48 PM »

Hi Mike,

Glad Your Back!

Sorry to hear about the health and job issues...

On a better note, get it fired up!  you have lots of help here.

Good Luck
Nick-
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kyle4501
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2007, 07:53:47 AM »

As for starting it, My biggest concern would be a runaway engine, so:

- verify the rack is not stuck & is operating properly
- make sure you can turn the fuel off in a hurry if you need to
- have a fire extinguisher to make sure a small fire doesn't grow into a big problem, BTDT (CO2 doesn't leave as big a mess to clean up)

She should fire right off with good fuel.

Good Luck!
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Bosshosssport96
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2007, 09:04:42 AM »

Mike......get yourself a set of electrial schematics for the old girl,there out their.Beside having all of the safety equipment,you might want to  start it up with just the fuel you have in the primary and secondary bowls,that way if anything goes wrong it won't run long.The key is being able to shut the fuel off ASAP.The hardest windows to aquire for the scenicruiser are the rears,what ever you do don't throw the old window away,save it. Scenic Cruise 2007 is done with,just make sure your ready for the 2008 Scenic Cruise.Besides you,I'd like to see Kyle come along on the next cruise ,that brother has more cruisers then all the cruisers put together that went on the last cruise....*smiling*...I'd like the next cruise to start in Arizona and venture up Route 66.Your right,being unemployed does have its advantages,you get to work on the cruiser.I myself will have to go back to work shortly,either that or work on someones bus,decisions decisions......Frank 4501-082
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phil4501
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2007, 02:40:06 PM »

What Kyle and Frank and the others said is all good advice...Of course, a guy could string some wires down the isle and do a little driving around while you plan your big wiring job. Don't let it set too long. It's not good for the cruiser and it's not good for you. It is so much easier to tackle the tasks at hand when you still have the smile on your face from the last spin around the block...or city...or state...we could meet you in Amboy.

Phil Zisakis 4501-821
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2007, 03:00:42 PM »

Here is a link to the scenicruiser road trip thread you were looking for.
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Michael_e
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2007, 04:15:35 PM »

Thanks again for all the links and the 'ran with the big dogs' link.

About the engine start up...the engine has not been started in about 5 years now. This was due to my lowering of the upper deck flooring. Now i can stand up stright except right at the outer walls where the roof curves. Lowering the floor was a huge amount of work. It required moving all the air, power steering, fuel, dash defroster, and electrical lines. Several folks mentioned i should have some way to shut the engine down quickly, since i have opened the fuel lines and don't want to fight that problem while trying to restart a engine, i was thinking of disconnecting the fuel line at the filters and drawing fuel from a 5 gal jerry can. If something exceting gets started, i can quickly remove the fuel line from the temp fuel tank. Thoughts??
Mike in Parker
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Dallas
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2007, 04:34:55 PM »

Michael,

Instead of just pulling the fuel line out of the bucket of fuel, you may want to think about putting a ball valve on the intake line so you can shut the fuel off and not lose your prime.

Since the engine hasn't been started in a few years, pop the rocker covers off and pour some oil over the valves and injectors, then, while it's set in a 'no fuel' position, turn the engine over manually if possible, with the starter if you have to.
Watch the injector rack and injectors to make sure everything is going up and down, back and forth along with hither and yon as it should. While your at it, you could set the valves to spec, but they are probably OK as it is.
The important thing is to make totally certain the injectors are not frozen. If one is, it can ruin a perfectly good day.

If you do have a runaway because of a stuck injector, have a piece of sheetmetal handy to toss over the air intake hole, which will require you to remove the air intake tube to the blower before you start the engine.

The reason I mention the piece of sheet metal is that just shutting off the fuel probably won't kill the engine fast enough to keep from tossing spare parts all over the yard. The positive part though, the oil that's blown out will get rid of the pesky crabgrass you've been trying to subdue for years. the downside is that if you do need to use the sheet metal, you'll most likely lose the seals in the blower, but that's a lot cheaper fix than rebuilding the whole engine.

Be safe, be careful and have a lot of fun!

Dallas

                                      GO BUSSING!
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Len Silva
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2007, 04:57:34 PM »

If you just pull the hose from the jerry can, you still have a lot of fuel in the filters.  I would install a ball valve very close to where the fuel line enters the heads but where I can reach it quickly.

That should stop it pretty quick without resorting to the sledge hammer routine or choking off the air supply (which could cause problems of it's own.

Len
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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2007, 06:37:10 PM »

Hello

help me out here....

Why wouldn't pulling on the fuel shut off on the governor stop it?

The one that the Schraeder brand air valve pushes normally to stop it?

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Dallas
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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2007, 06:50:26 PM »

Hello

help me out here....

Why wouldn't pulling on the fuel shut off on the governor stop it?

The one that the Schraeder brand air valve pushes normally to stop it?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Because if there is a stuck injector the rack may not close again to shut off the fuel.

Also, I believe the 4501 doesn't use an air throttle. It uses a cable.

Dallas

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roadrunnertex
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2007, 07:03:59 PM »

Dallas,
Use a CO2 fire extinguisher.
CO2 will shut a Detroit down with no problem and it saves the blower seals. Grin
The Scenicruiser did have a cable for the throttle system for the 8V/71.
JLV

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Dallas
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2007, 07:09:49 PM »

CO2 or even Argon or mix. I've seen it used from a welding tank, but didn't think about it. Lot's cheaper than rebuilding an engine or even a blower.

But it is kind of fun to see how far the parts can go when they let loose!  Tongue Wink
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Len Silva
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2007, 07:28:43 PM »

Hello

help me out here....

Why wouldn't pulling on the fuel shut off on the governor stop it?

The one that the Schraeder brand air valve pushes normally to stop it?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

I'm not sure about the 8-71 but on my 4104, the link from the governor to the rack is spring loaded.  If the rack is stuck (as mine was), moving the governor arm did not move the rack.

After having a stuck injector and worrying about a run away, I did just that, installed a small ball valve right at the head.  I have been looking for a 12 volt fuel valve that I could put in it's place that would be operated by the run switch.  That way there would be a positive shut down without having to use the emergency flapper.

Len
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Dallas
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2007, 07:43:20 PM »

Len,

Caterwaller, umm, Caterpiller used a fuel shutoff solenoid for years, many of them still do on the gensets and heavy equipment.

Also the 6.5 GM diesel used one. Along with many perkins, Isuzu and Mercedes diesels as used in Reefer service.

Edit: I just looked on Google and found lots and lots. Here's some pictures:

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=electric+fuel+shut+off+solenoid&btnG=Search+Images

Dallas

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Michael_e
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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2007, 08:56:16 AM »

Thanks again for more ideas. I really like the electric selonid fuel shut off idea. Could also act as a theft prevention device. My bus DOESN'T have the original 8V71 natural, it now has a 8V92TA and a air throttle. The old cable it a tube was having rust and sticking problems. I had to remove the old cable when lowering the floor and was easier to just replace it with the air controlled throttle.
Will a pair of group 31 batteries be enough to start this engine under normal conditions? I'm not going to be using any of the original airconditioning system/blowers.
Mike in Parker
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« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2007, 09:29:40 AM »

I would pull both valve covers and see if all the injectors on moving.  Since it is a 92 series, the spring loaded injectors should not stick open.  I would highly suggest you NOT installing a ball valve on the intake side of the fuel-that's a good way to pull the seals out of the fuel pump-then what?  Using a C02 extinguisher is the best way to stop a run away.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2007, 12:31:31 PM »

Back to your original post: Did you find a rear window or have you talked to the glass people that repair cracks in windshields?
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