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Author Topic: We sparked a follow-up article in FleetOwner Magazine: Anti-seize round #2  (Read 1505 times)
Barn Owl
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« on: July 25, 2007, 09:57:37 PM »

Anti-seize round #2:

For those who missed it the last time we duked it out you can get caught up by starting here:

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3536.0



FleetOwner writer Kevin Rohlwing writes a follow-up article in the July 2007 magazine:

Here is the article, and the link to it appears below:


FleetOwner

A matter of physics

By Kevin Rohlwing e-mail: kevinrohlwing@comcast.net

Jul 1, 2007 12:00 PM


A few months ago, I struck a nerve with a few Fleet Owner readers when I stated that anti-seize compounds were not recognized as wheel system lubricants by the fastener, stud, hub and wheel manufacturers. The article was even posted on an Internet trucking forum where someone questioned me as a credible source. I responded by describing a few professional accomplishments and 25+ years of working on truck tires before I finally added the line about the manufacturers.
When an inflated tire and wheel comes off of a commercial vehicle at any speed, it is a 200-lb. unguided missile. It can bounce in any direction and deliver a crushing blow to anything in its path. There's also the issue about losing control of the vehicle and causing a roll-over or chain-reaction accident. It's bad news for the fleet and even worse news for the tire dealer who installed the wheel.
Liability is all about determining what steps were taken to prevent the accident from occurring in the first place. In the event of a wheel-off, one of the easiest targets for a plaintiff's attorney is the torque spec used to tighten the fasteners. If the party in question used anything other than a manual or pneumatic torque wrench, the view under the microscope goes downhill fast.
But even more important than torque is the clamping force, or bolt tension, it creates. This is what actually keeps the wheels on the vehicle. It's like the settings on a grill. My father can light a grill, but we used to call him “old black-is-done” because he didn't understand that everything can't be cooked on high heat and then turned over when the smoke starts pouring out.
Clamping force is all about the recipe, or the steps that are taken to ensure that the proper torque results in the correct amount of bolt tension. If the torque is wrong to begin with, then there's little hope under the microscope. But even if by rare chance the torque is correct, there's still no guarantee on the clamping force because there are a number of factors that come into play, like the condition of the mating surfaces and the fasteners.
Another one of those necessary conditions is dry threads for stud-piloted disc wheels. None of the manufacturers publish lubricated specifications for the old Budd wheels, with the exception of Alcoa who specifies 30-weight oil as the only approved lubricant. And it also includes an accompanying drop in torque of 100 ft-lb. to 350-400 ft.-lb. More clamping force is generated per foot -pound of torque when friction is taken out of the equation, so a lower torque generates the same amount of clamping force.
The use of anti-seize lubricants on stud-piloted disc wheels solves a problem but creates a potential liability disaster. Evidence of an improper fastener lubricant will be easy for the jury to see, so the parade of engineers and expert witnesses will point to the fact that the wheels came off because of improper clamping force caused by the compound.
There are always going to be some old-guard mechanics and tire guys who have been using it for 30 years without a problem. Fleet execs must ask themselves if they're willing to bank on the opinions and experience of guys out in the shop who haven't had an accident for decades. Or, they can follow the physics and engineering that determines the relationship between torque and clamping force with the presence of non-approved fastener lubricants.

Link:

http://fleetowner.com/equipment/tiretracks/fleet_matter_physics/


Comments anyone?
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 01:43:05 AM »

Comments anyone?
 
Yea,  Use lots of Duct Tape....... On the lawyers that is...

Nick-
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 06:22:08 AM »

OK, so what happens when a wheel comes off due to improper installation of any kind (excess torque, insufficient torque, lube or no lube)?

Does it mean that the nuts came off or that the studs broke?

Len
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 07:45:33 AM »

yup!
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2007, 08:13:52 AM »

Hey BK,

     Is that yup to the studs breaking or yup to the nuts coming off??  ....Steve....
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 08:15:52 AM »

Hey BK,

     Is that yup to the studs breaking or yup to the nuts coming off??  ....Steve....

yup!
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 10:40:10 AM »

Are we talking about wheel nuts or lawyer nutz?Huh
Dennis
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 01:24:36 PM »

I think the lawyers probably have a pretty good case when a wheel comes off the hub. It is likely due to negligence at some time during the life of the studs, nuts or wheel. These things have been discussed forever on the BBS.

Putting your assets in the hands of a jury in the US is scary at best. As I read somewhere, "You are being judged by people who were not smart enough to get out of jury duty".

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gus
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2007, 02:10:50 PM »

This is nothing more than a repeat of the first article. I'm not interested in his expert qualifications, I want to hear of some actual wheels coming off because of the use of anti-seize. He never says that anti-seize will cause a wheel to come off!!

I think most people are well aware of the physics of a loose wheel from a moving vehicle so why did he have to use this as most of his article??

As for liability-it doesn't matter why your wheel came off, you're responsible, anti-seize or not.

This article is so much bull. It is a way for wheel component manufacturers to excuse themselves from the liability of someone using too much anti-seize.

I'm a lot more concerned about the way tire shops manhandle my wheels with their monster air wrenches than I am about the use of a small amount of anti-seize.
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2007, 07:01:40 PM »

Gee Gus,  I'll have to think about that...why are you so angry?
I remember that way back when I worked on military aircraft, they taught us to torque a bolt, back it off, then retourque it.  Seems logical to me.  I still do that.  I practically came to blows lately at a local alignment shop, when the mechanic/owner refused to torque the lug nuts, and finally admitted he didn't even have a torque wrench in his shop...something about having done this work for twenty five years and I could have them checked and they would be right.  Well, I did have them checked and two of the lugs were close.  The others were all over the chart.  Go figure.  My last visit to his shop.   
Dennis
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2007, 07:47:14 PM »

Dennis,

Yeah, you're right, I was really ticked off when I wrote that. I have absolutely no patience with writers who go on and on and say nothing. In this case he did it two times!!

Those guys write so it appears that they are stating some kind of case but when you read it closely they say nothing factual. Another type writes a bunch of suggestive questions to insinuate something but never really says anything. He uses his headline to make it appear that there is something to the article. Kind of like the standard headlines of scandal sheets at checkout registers.

I also get frosted at self proclaimed experts or those who think they are because they've been doing something for many years. Sometimes they learn something during all those years and sometimes they don't.

I had pretty much the same experience as you at my local tire shop. I say local, but it is 35 miles away and the only heavy duty tire shop anywhere near. One of the penalties for living in the boonies.

At first the tire tech said he couldn't mount my four new tires I just bought from them because his jack was too tall to go under my bus. I told him I had bought two new tires from them last year and the jack worked ok. He then told me that they had a new jack and it was taller. It was a miserably hot day and I couldn't blame him a lot! Anyway, I suggested that I drive the bus up on blocks so his jack would fit. He looked at me like I was Einstein and said that was a great idea but he didn't have any blocks. I told him we could use my leveling blocks. Again he gave me that look of wonder and said that was a great idea. I knew by that time to not even ask him to use a torque wrench but I did ask if they had one. Ha, of course they didn't or he didn't want to bother.

When you think about it probably 90% of the heavy trucks rolling along our highways have wheels mounted by shops just like this. Kind of scary.
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