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Author Topic: Need more help: 8V92 Cooling  (Read 5014 times)
TomC
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2007, 08:23:15 PM »

After reading Sean's blog it appears that he used a non paper 2 stage air filter element like a K&N.  Please everyone-use only quality paper elements with the AC Delco element being the best at filtering (as tested-can't quite remember the source).  The only real use for a K&N is in a race engine that is taken apart frequently-not in our buses that we are trying for several hundreds of thousand miles.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Sean
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2007, 09:11:40 PM »

Tom,

Yes, it was an oiled-cotton filter.  But the real problem was that the gasket at the bottom of the cartridge was too thin, and a lot of air (and dirt) merely bypassed the filter through that gap.

Tekebird:  I drive about 20,000 miles each year.  Of those, fewer than 1% are on dirt.  By contrast, Princess Tours has a fleet of MCI's in Alaska that spend nearly half their lives on dirt (the Alyeska haul road, AKA Dalton Highway), and I am aware of several major US operators that run significant numbers of miles on dirt roads.  In fact, you may be aware that Greyhound operated its early coaches on large stretches of dirt roads.  Neoplans in South America spend huge portions of their lives on dirt.  So please, don't tell me that the coaches are not designed for it -- they most certainly are, and the specified filtration should handle it, albeit with reduced maintenance intervals.  (Mind you, we're not talking about off-roading here -- these are dirt roads.)

If you think you can stay off the dirt entirely, I will tell you that you've just ruled out staying in 95% or better of national park, national forest, COE, BLM, and other federal campgrounds, and probably something in excess of 30% of state parks, and, while we don't do it much, I'm pretty sure that even many private campgrounds have dirt roads or unpaved pads.

The bottom line is that I had a failure of filtration.  That's going to dust an engine no matter where you drive -- it will just take a little longer on the pavement.

One of the issues that I am grappling with is that the last three shops that changed my oil failed to pull samples, even though I asked for samples to be pulled each time.  Had the first (or maybe second, I don't remember where in all this the suspect filter got installed) shop I asked followed my instructions, I might have gotten a report on silicates in the oil in time to correct the problem before I needed an in-frame.  Lesson learned:  I will be standing behind the technician from now on each and every time the oil is drained, and make sure they pull the damn sample.  And, by the way, at least one of the shops is a shop that is regularly discussed on this board in glowing terms -- anyone can screw up.

The other lesson I learned is to put some grease around the gasket before installing the filter, and make sure that said grease leaves an imprint at the back of the canister.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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Full-timing in a 1985 Neoplan Spaceliner since 2004.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2007, 09:57:36 PM »

Stay away from Idaho if you think buses are not to be driven on dirt and gravel roads
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Don4107
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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2007, 10:39:35 AM »

If you drive where it snows you drive in sand.  If you drive through the desserts you drive on sand.  If you drive where there is farming/construction you drive on dirt.  What do you think that stuff is that hits your windshield when it rains and someone blows by you?  You don't have to get off pavement to drive in some nasty conditions.  Now where did I put that oil sample kit?
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Don 4107 Eastern Washington
1975 MCI 5B
1966 GM PD 4107 for sale
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Hobie
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2007, 07:54:11 PM »

I'm stumped as well.  Here are a few guesses. 

Before the rebuild you noted unusual heating.  With fresh engine now it tends to eliminate it as the culprit.  Same with fuel delivery and you were all over the filters prior to bringing into the shop.  Low pressure "should" have shown up at Pedco or Williams.  Bad load fuel- maybe, but I doubt fuel systems.

That leaves cooling system.  It's sure a long shot that the water pump is missing a vane or two resulting in lower flow.  They tend to work or not,  or work and just leak!   If it had a severed or freewheeling shaft it would seem you would overheat way before pulling a grade.

You have not mentioned if you are loosing coolant.  I bet not as this would catch you eye early on.  If the radiator cap was acting up and not keeping correct pressure, that would cause heating.  And also slowly loose coolant to evaporation.  Bet the cap is ok but cheap to replace and rule out ( is the pressure rating correct?)

Thermostat.  Possibility stuck.  Does it warm up at usual when cold?  If stuck it may take a little longer.  Longshot again, but cheap to replace.

My final guess-----fan clutch.  You said it pulls strong when idling, "can't stand behind it".   And it cools the bus down at fast idle during a hill climb.  Good.

The problem area is at speed/load its not transferring all the power necessary to drive the fan properly. 

Only when you are asking for the max from the cooling system puts enough stress on the system to show the problem.  During city driving it still may be present but there is enough overhead in the cooling system to give the appearance of normal function.

*    Now if you don't have fan clutch please remove my foot from my mouth!!
**  Can't tell you how to test a fan clutch. 
***Sean I have been so intrigued by your bus mysteries I think I will start reading murder mysteries again! Smiley   
Good Luck!
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NEO/Russ
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« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2007, 07:53:37 AM »

Sean,

If by chance it is the thermostatic fan clutch, I have three that you can have for free when you're passing through this area.  Two were off my Skyliner and one off a Mega.  At least one should be good.  Might not be a bad idea to carry one for a spare since I doubt you'll find one at the local truck parts store.

Russ
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Well no longer a bus nut, but over the years I learned a lot here and still come back to see what I can apply to the conversion of my KW T2000 for hauling my Teton fifth wheeler.
Sean
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« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2007, 08:34:47 AM »

Thanks, Russ, I will take you up on that.

Since you've already got them off, perhaps you can tell me if there is any kind of manual lock-up on them?  I can't see any, but it's hard to get to the back side of them.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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NEO/Russ
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« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2007, 08:46:40 AM »

They are at home, 50 miles away, so I'm relying on memory and that is aging like your cooling system; but as I recall there is a thermostatic coil on the forward side.  The housing is die cast aluminum and the blades some type molded plastic.  I never looked for any "fill" device, but don't recall any.  They attach with four bolts to the shaft on the opposite side of the v-belt pulley.  I think they come off without pulling the shroud, but can't swear to that. 

They look like the thermostatic fans I grew up with on small block Chev motors, just larger and of course - being German they are metric. 

I don't know their condition since I never ran this bus with the 8V, but since it was in operation shuttleing gamblers from Phoenix to LV in the 90's they have had about 10 years of R&R.
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Well no longer a bus nut, but over the years I learned a lot here and still come back to see what I can apply to the conversion of my KW T2000 for hauling my Teton fifth wheeler.
NEO/Russ
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2007, 08:47:17 AM »

And no manual lock-up visible.
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Well no longer a bus nut, but over the years I learned a lot here and still come back to see what I can apply to the conversion of my KW T2000 for hauling my Teton fifth wheeler.
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« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2007, 11:48:41 AM »

I hate to even suggest this after all you have been through but here is another thing to check:

Have a smog shop probe your radiator fill with engine running.  Hopefully it will not detect anything.  However, if it detects exhaust gases it may point to a crack in the head or block (or head gasket;but yours is new) which would also explain your heating issue. Ugg.   

But, a cracked block will also slowly loose coolant and you have not mentioned this so I hope this is a dead end. 

Still think its a defective fan clutch. 
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Sean
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« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2007, 11:49:52 AM »

Russ,

From your description, it's not clear that we have the same fans.  In any case, I thought a photo would help the whole discussion, so here's my attempt at a picture of the fan hub/coupling:




-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2007, 01:53:17 PM »

Sean, with engine cold and not running ,spin the fan with your hand - it should spin freely.
Drive your bus to operating temperature, or more. Shut off engine (no disrespect intended), see if the cooling fan still spins freely. If cooling fan still spins with no resistance, fan clutch is NG.
Good luck.  Cool
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TomC
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« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2007, 01:58:32 PM »

Sean- that almost looks like a hydraulic fan hub.  Is there an air line going to it?  Does it cycle on and off?  If you have an air line going to it, usually the air releases it, so if you disconnect the air line to the fan clutch it should run continuously.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Sean
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« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2007, 04:21:37 PM »

Sammy -- The fans don't spin "freely" when the engine is off -- I can move them with my hand, but I feel resistance.  They won't keep spinning when I take my hand away.

And

Tom -- no air, hydraulic, or electric lines go to the hubs.  They are completely on their own.

I've been told these are probably viscous couplings.  They certainly feel like they are filled with some viscous substance.

Sammy, does that change your suggestion that I should not be able to move them when they're hot?

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2007, 05:48:30 PM »

Sean, there should be more resistance when hot, don't remember if it actually became a direct drive - solid feel, no spin at all. Hope this may help with your troubleshooting.  Cool
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