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Author Topic: tires and Nitrogen  (Read 3163 times)
tekebird
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« on: October 05, 2007, 11:09:49 AM »

Sept Bus Ride:  a nice article on Nitrogen inflation
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« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2007, 01:14:03 PM »

 At the Dallas GAT show nearly all the tire manufactures and the retread people were pushing nitrogen...and offering one version or the other of a self contained nitrogen generator...big selling point longer tire life all claiming tire deteroration was from oxygen molecules migrating through the side walls...Biggest seller this show ringtread retreads....and Michelin pushing super singles with Alcoa....
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2007, 01:40:31 PM »

gg,
That is an excellent piece of info on the nitrogen.  I had heard nito touted years ago but the angle of less deteriation fell on my deaf ears as I was smart enuff to know that the oxidation problem was on the outside...not the inside.  This is the first I have heard about ox migrating thru the rubber and it makes sense.

Thanks again,

John
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tekebird
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2007, 02:11:10 PM »

mjoisture too as you almost never get dry air when you fill a tire.

One reason Equal tire ballancing powder is a problem
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Hi yo silver
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2007, 02:38:50 PM »

 Heck, I figure if I have fairly new tires, they will last longer than I will be driving the bus anyhow.  (I'm tellin' my age)
Dennis
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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2007, 06:14:12 PM »

"big selling point longer tire life "

and no doubt they had hard experimental evidence to show that in the REAL world, deterioration because of oxygen was the limiting factor in tyre life. Probably not.
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« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2007, 03:23:00 AM »

At the Dallas GAT show nearly all the tire manufactures and the retread people were pushing nitrogen...and offering one version or the other of a self contained nitrogen generator...big selling point longer tire life all claiming tire deteroration was from oxygen molecules migrating through the side walls...Biggest seller this show ringtread retreads....and Michelin pushing super singles with Alcoa....

Yeah, self contained nitrogen generator BIG SELLING POINT and a big price I bet also. My guess the price is something only a charter out might be able to afford. But I have been wrong before LOL. It would be nice if they had some Stats to show how much longer the tire life was. Even if you got three or four years more that would be great, but at what cost $$$$$ for the generator.

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« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2007, 05:23:48 AM »

Since the air we breathe is approx. 70% nitrogen, might be a way to make a "home brew" nitrogen generator?  Jack
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« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2007, 05:26:32 AM »

local tire outfit will fill at 5.00 per tire.

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« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2007, 05:32:04 AM »

local tire outfit will fill at 5.00 per tire.

Just curious, do they pull a vacuum or just add the nitrogen to air(and moisture) that is already in the tire?  Jack
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« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2007, 05:33:58 AM »

local tire outfit will fill at 5.00 per tire.



I have met a few antique car collectors who used nitrogen to inflate the tires on their antiques. They felt it significantly extended the life of their antique tires.

The ones I saw had their own nitrogen bottle with regulator to cut the 3,000 pound pressure down to a reasonable level. I suspect they seldom, if ever, had to refill the bottle.

Richard
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« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2007, 05:37:15 AM »

local tire outfit will fill at 5.00 per tire.

Just curious, do they pull a vacuum or just add the nitrogen to air(and moisture) that is already in the tire?  Jack

The antique guys just deflated the tires initially on the first fill. After that, it was just a matter of every few months adding additional nitrogen to keep the tires inflated to the proper pressure.

Richard
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« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2007, 09:16:27 AM »

while I am sure that the lack of oxygen and more importantly the moisture in the tire would help tire life but as stated tires tend to rot from the outside in unless it is a trailer queen that never goes outside. the big benefit to nitrogen is that it is more stable and does not vary with heat. we used it in the race cars years ago only because if you put 20 pounds in a tire at room temp it would stay at nearly 20 pounds at racing temp. of course those tires never lasted long enough to know if there was a deterioration benefit.
steve
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« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2007, 09:29:36 AM »

The obvious question I have is that, like many on here, I check my tires regularily and when I find a tire that might be a little low, now I would have to find a place where they have nitrogen to bring the pressure up or have a nitrogen source with me.  I'm sure there is some benefit here somewhere but I think I'll stick with regular air until more information on the pros and cons is available.
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« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2007, 11:56:39 AM »

Air is slightly over 78% nitrogen and almost 21% oxygen. When that oxygen escapes through the rubber and reduces your 100 PSI tire down to 79 PSI just fill it back up with the common 78% nitrogen air and you will have almost 95% nitrogen in your tire. If you have to do it a second time it will  be closer to pure nitrogen than you get from a nitrogen generator. One ad says their unit produces 98% nitrogen.

If your concern is moisture, you likely have an air dryer on your bus compressor and it is easy to put one on your shop compressor.
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kyle4501
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« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2007, 06:29:50 AM »

If I were running a tire store, I'd be forced to have the nitrogen because of the marketing hype scaring people into thinking that if I didn't fill tires with nitrogen, I was not providing a quality service.

It seems to me the nitrogen thing is mostly BS piled on top of a tiny fact propped up with more BS.

Like Stan said, it don't take much effort to put an air dryer on your shop air!

I'm with Steve, I've NEVER seen a tire's inside that didn't look new when removed from the rim - So I'm wondering just what they are talking about this 'migrating oxygen causing deterioration' is all about.

Only thing that makes sense to me is more proffits for those selling nitrogen systems.

BTW at $5 per tire every time it needs air, seems like a lot of $$$ for a marginal (if any at all) return.



BUT if you feel better paying extra for nitrogen, go ahead, that is what this great hobby is all about - do it your way!  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2007, 08:29:13 AM »

well as I said the only real benefit for us was pressure stability but that was in the race cars where a pound or two of pressure effected the handling. I know some guys who insist on it for their street cars but personally none of my street cars are so fine tuned on the suspension that a couple of pounds is noticable. I guess if you notice a big difference in the way your bus handles as tire temps change it could be worth it but I doubt it, I never knew the difference in my big truck if tire pressure changed 5psi. I think beyond racing or VERY highly tuned street cars it is a waste of money. but thats just my $.02.
steve
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« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2007, 10:35:44 AM »

If your racing I can see the benefit ... for my bus I have to side with Kyle and Stan ... too much hype and BS
Ron
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« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2007, 11:23:19 AM »

I visit a handfull of trucking companies that have been using Nitrogen for years.  They say the biggest benefit is the number of tires that do not blow or get destroyed due to heating issues.  Most run in hot climates such as the west and deep south.  By the way, most of the 'alligators' you see on the road are not from recaps, they are from new tires that lose the tread section.
Most have their own machines that take the oxygen out of the air leaving about 99% Nitrogen and a handful of other molecules.  The cost to them is in the 75 cents per tire for a 110 psi fill.
Now on another subject...the single best thing to do to extend the life of yor tires (Besides keeping them properly aired) is to cover them when parked.  It's the UV rays that attack the sidewalls and eventually cause the cracking you see.
For what it's worth!
Jack
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« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2007, 02:15:20 PM »

Nitrogen benefits:

Cooler running tire= less wear= better mileage

Tires do not fluxuate in temp as much.  on the clif Bar 04 I talked them into putting tire monitor system on it.  Was amazed at the variation in temps and preasures over the 28 hour non stop trip.

It's not BS at all.  Is it worth it for your conversion you only run 5 k a year....probably not.....but it certainly is not BS.

Race cars, aircraft etc.

Several Transit Agencies are now running nitrogen, I'd do it if I had a place that could fill at 120#, only reasonably close shop can only inflate to 80PSI and thats on a good day

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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2007, 02:36:39 PM »

I'm not saying it doesn't run cooler & etc.

I am saying it won't make a difference worth the cost if you are only replacing tires due to old age. Which applies to most conversions.


I'd also like to see a comparrison between plain air, dry air, & nitrogen.

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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2007, 01:59:57 PM »

GAT sales were aimed at fleet management not tire stores.. Take the time to read the data and it makes sense...Also pushed hard by the retread industry, both bandag and ringtread trying for the million mile tire in under ten years of carcass life...They want carcasses to last longer more life means better profit for them vs new tires...small bottle of nitrogen will last you nearly  forever ,pressure control valve only thing expensive, if it makes your tires last longer with the tiny amount of miles most of us do sounds good to me..gg04
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2007, 02:29:19 PM »

Doug, what is the article you are refering to, or mayby I mean 'The Bus Ride"? Where do I get it?
Thanks
Jack
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Jack Hart, CDS
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2007, 02:34:26 PM »

Bus Ride magazine.

I have a subscription...no idea where to get a single copy
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2007, 02:45:24 PM »

http://www.busride.com/

Is this the one?
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2007, 03:04:47 PM »

The world wonders if this "new" nitrogen push to fill tires has something good and solid behind it like good and solid science, or could it perhaps be just another gimmic offered at times designed to part the customer from his money.

Someone earlier on one of these excellent boards stated stastictically (sp) that with a slow leak after several top offs with ordinary air, one would have nearly pure nitrogen in the tire anyway.  Is this true?  I dunno.

We need some chemist type person to log on and set us straight on the mass and size of these molecules and how the lighter stuff (oxygen?) would migrate out and the heavier stuff (nitrogen?) would stay in?  I dunno.

Maybe the situation is, as already stated, more moisture oriented than gas oriented?  If soosss, would a good air dryer on the air compressor used to fill tires solve the problem nearly as well as nitrogen?  I dunno again.

My own worry is that if I use nitrogen to fill my coach tires, then when I crash the bus thru the bridge and end up in the water, I CANNOT breathe the tire air like James Bond did once or twice.  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2007, 03:24:05 PM »

I forgot one of the main benefits!  With air in the tires you have moisture.  With nitrogen you do not.  If you get a nail or bolt in the tire and fail to see it (Which happens a lot) with the air in the tire it can rust and cause the steel belts it is touching to rust too...eventually destroying the tire.
One of my trash haulers in LA was the first to tell me about this, and that was over ten years ago.  He had done several studies where some ran with air, some with nitrgen.  The cost factors with nitrogen were a lot lower!
Jack
PS...I do not own sell or in anyway benefit from this conversation! LOL
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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2007, 08:02:39 PM »

This Nitrogen thing pops up about every two months. I think it is a bunch of bull, just another scam to make a quick buck.

Because some guy writes an article doesn't make it so.

My understanding of tire deterioration is that the compound in the rubber migrates to the outside and dries, mostly from sunshine, and that it won't migrate if the tire is flexed (Driven on) often.

My new Toyo tires haven't lost a pound of air in 6-12 months so I don't seem to have much of a problem with Oxygen molecular loss?

I hope this one dies a natural death on the Board.
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2007, 08:23:30 PM »

Hey Gus, I think we need a 'do not resuscitate' for this until something more substantial than has been presented shows up.

Sorry, but there are way too many control points that haven't been considered in the 'fleet testing' for the dats presented thus far to mean much.

But HEY, do it your own way.  Grin
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« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2007, 01:00:53 AM »

 Grin Grin  Finally a subject where I can use my schooling.   Grin Grin

Nitrogen gas (N2) is an inert gas (nonreactive) as opposed to Oxygen (O2) which reacts (oxidizes) with nearly anything it comes in contact with (i.e. steel, rubber compounds, etc...)  This property of Nitrogen along with it being noncombustible and it is essentially dry compared to normal air are the most beneficial for the application of filling tires.  Since Nitrogen gas in noncombustible I would think a tire fire would be less likely.  This is one of the reasons it is used in aviation tires. 

Moisture is the main player that accounts for the change of pressure due to temperature increase.  Although we are only talking about a fluctuation of maybe a pound or so of air.  Not that big of a deal in a non racing application.

Also, N2 is larger in diameter than O2 and may not leak out as fast, which should be a non factor for those who check their pressures regularly.

Is it worth it?

If I had to pay five bucks per tire when I needed to add air.  I doubt it.
Now if you have other more affordable means to get Nitrogen then why not give it a try.  It definitely has some beneficial properties.
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« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2007, 06:05:47 AM »

Unless your a fleet and putting tons of miles on, its probably not worth it! Now I can vouch that it worked in racing, tires build heat while racing, and I mean lots of heat it wasn't abnormal to see tire temps reaching 200F, now if your using O2 there is a lot of moisture and as the temperature climbs the pressure also climbs, as they climb the tire size or diameter grows also (stagger) as the diameter changes the car setup changes on both dirt and asphalt this makes a huge difference and drastically affects how your car handles!  This at one time was a secret in racing but that was a long time ago.  N2 made the handling predictable!  The way we put N2 in the tires was we also had a pressure relief valve in each wheel, we used this to purge the O2 as we filled them with N2!  Unless you start racing your bus......i'd stick with 02!
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« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2007, 06:59:07 AM »

OK OK I got an Idea! If everybody here will send me just $10 I'll buy one of those nitrogen generating compressor, an then I can run it in all the buses that come thru our shop and do an indepth study on how it effects all of US! And any of you will be welcome to come by and fill the tires on your buses for free! See I think we gots a winning real life testing solution here!  Cheesy

Grin  BK  Grin
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