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Author Topic: tires and Nitrogen  (Read 3121 times)
kyle4501
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« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2007, 06:29:50 AM »

If I were running a tire store, I'd be forced to have the nitrogen because of the marketing hype scaring people into thinking that if I didn't fill tires with nitrogen, I was not providing a quality service.

It seems to me the nitrogen thing is mostly BS piled on top of a tiny fact propped up with more BS.

Like Stan said, it don't take much effort to put an air dryer on your shop air!

I'm with Steve, I've NEVER seen a tire's inside that didn't look new when removed from the rim - So I'm wondering just what they are talking about this 'migrating oxygen causing deterioration' is all about.

Only thing that makes sense to me is more proffits for those selling nitrogen systems.

BTW at $5 per tire every time it needs air, seems like a lot of $$$ for a marginal (if any at all) return.



BUT if you feel better paying extra for nitrogen, go ahead, that is what this great hobby is all about - do it your way!  Grin
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compedgemarine
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« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2007, 08:29:13 AM »

well as I said the only real benefit for us was pressure stability but that was in the race cars where a pound or two of pressure effected the handling. I know some guys who insist on it for their street cars but personally none of my street cars are so fine tuned on the suspension that a couple of pounds is noticable. I guess if you notice a big difference in the way your bus handles as tire temps change it could be worth it but I doubt it, I never knew the difference in my big truck if tire pressure changed 5psi. I think beyond racing or VERY highly tuned street cars it is a waste of money. but thats just my $.02.
steve
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prevost82
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« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2007, 10:35:44 AM »

If your racing I can see the benefit ... for my bus I have to side with Kyle and Stan ... too much hype and BS
Ron
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jackhartjr
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« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2007, 11:23:19 AM »

I visit a handfull of trucking companies that have been using Nitrogen for years.  They say the biggest benefit is the number of tires that do not blow or get destroyed due to heating issues.  Most run in hot climates such as the west and deep south.  By the way, most of the 'alligators' you see on the road are not from recaps, they are from new tires that lose the tread section.
Most have their own machines that take the oxygen out of the air leaving about 99% Nitrogen and a handful of other molecules.  The cost to them is in the 75 cents per tire for a 110 psi fill.
Now on another subject...the single best thing to do to extend the life of yor tires (Besides keeping them properly aired) is to cover them when parked.  It's the UV rays that attack the sidewalls and eventually cause the cracking you see.
For what it's worth!
Jack
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Jack Hart, CDS
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tekebird
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« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2007, 02:15:20 PM »

Nitrogen benefits:

Cooler running tire= less wear= better mileage

Tires do not fluxuate in temp as much.  on the clif Bar 04 I talked them into putting tire monitor system on it.  Was amazed at the variation in temps and preasures over the 28 hour non stop trip.

It's not BS at all.  Is it worth it for your conversion you only run 5 k a year....probably not.....but it certainly is not BS.

Race cars, aircraft etc.

Several Transit Agencies are now running nitrogen, I'd do it if I had a place that could fill at 120#, only reasonably close shop can only inflate to 80PSI and thats on a good day

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kyle4501
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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2007, 02:36:39 PM »

I'm not saying it doesn't run cooler & etc.

I am saying it won't make a difference worth the cost if you are only replacing tires due to old age. Which applies to most conversions.


I'd also like to see a comparrison between plain air, dry air, & nitrogen.

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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2007, 01:59:57 PM »

GAT sales were aimed at fleet management not tire stores.. Take the time to read the data and it makes sense...Also pushed hard by the retread industry, both bandag and ringtread trying for the million mile tire in under ten years of carcass life...They want carcasses to last longer more life means better profit for them vs new tires...small bottle of nitrogen will last you nearly  forever ,pressure control valve only thing expensive, if it makes your tires last longer with the tiny amount of miles most of us do sounds good to me..gg04
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jackhartjr
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2007, 02:29:19 PM »

Doug, what is the article you are refering to, or mayby I mean 'The Bus Ride"? Where do I get it?
Thanks
Jack
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Jack Hart, CDS
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2007, 02:34:26 PM »

Bus Ride magazine.

I have a subscription...no idea where to get a single copy
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Dreamscape
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2007, 02:45:24 PM »

http://www.busride.com/

Is this the one?
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HB of CJ
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2007, 03:04:47 PM »

The world wonders if this "new" nitrogen push to fill tires has something good and solid behind it like good and solid science, or could it perhaps be just another gimmic offered at times designed to part the customer from his money.

Someone earlier on one of these excellent boards stated stastictically (sp) that with a slow leak after several top offs with ordinary air, one would have nearly pure nitrogen in the tire anyway.  Is this true?  I dunno.

We need some chemist type person to log on and set us straight on the mass and size of these molecules and how the lighter stuff (oxygen?) would migrate out and the heavier stuff (nitrogen?) would stay in?  I dunno.

Maybe the situation is, as already stated, more moisture oriented than gas oriented?  If soosss, would a good air dryer on the air compressor used to fill tires solve the problem nearly as well as nitrogen?  I dunno again.

My own worry is that if I use nitrogen to fill my coach tires, then when I crash the bus thru the bridge and end up in the water, I CANNOT breathe the tire air like James Bond did once or twice.  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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jackhartjr
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« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2007, 03:24:05 PM »

I forgot one of the main benefits!  With air in the tires you have moisture.  With nitrogen you do not.  If you get a nail or bolt in the tire and fail to see it (Which happens a lot) with the air in the tire it can rust and cause the steel belts it is touching to rust too...eventually destroying the tire.
One of my trash haulers in LA was the first to tell me about this, and that was over ten years ago.  He had done several studies where some ran with air, some with nitrgen.  The cost factors with nitrogen were a lot lower!
Jack
PS...I do not own sell or in anyway benefit from this conversation! LOL
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Jack Hart, CDS
1956 GMC PD-4501 #945 (The Mighty SCENICRUISER!)
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gus
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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2007, 08:02:39 PM »

This Nitrogen thing pops up about every two months. I think it is a bunch of bull, just another scam to make a quick buck.

Because some guy writes an article doesn't make it so.

My understanding of tire deterioration is that the compound in the rubber migrates to the outside and dries, mostly from sunshine, and that it won't migrate if the tire is flexed (Driven on) often.

My new Toyo tires haven't lost a pound of air in 6-12 months so I don't seem to have much of a problem with Oxygen molecular loss?

I hope this one dies a natural death on the Board.
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kyle4501
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2007, 08:23:30 PM »

Hey Gus, I think we need a 'do not resuscitate' for this until something more substantial than has been presented shows up.

Sorry, but there are way too many control points that haven't been considered in the 'fleet testing' for the dats presented thus far to mean much.

But HEY, do it your own way.  Grin
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buddydawg
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« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2007, 01:00:53 AM »

 Grin Grin  Finally a subject where I can use my schooling.   Grin Grin

Nitrogen gas (N2) is an inert gas (nonreactive) as opposed to Oxygen (O2) which reacts (oxidizes) with nearly anything it comes in contact with (i.e. steel, rubber compounds, etc...)  This property of Nitrogen along with it being noncombustible and it is essentially dry compared to normal air are the most beneficial for the application of filling tires.  Since Nitrogen gas in noncombustible I would think a tire fire would be less likely.  This is one of the reasons it is used in aviation tires. 

Moisture is the main player that accounts for the change of pressure due to temperature increase.  Although we are only talking about a fluctuation of maybe a pound or so of air.  Not that big of a deal in a non racing application.

Also, N2 is larger in diameter than O2 and may not leak out as fast, which should be a non factor for those who check their pressures regularly.

Is it worth it?

If I had to pay five bucks per tire when I needed to add air.  I doubt it.
Now if you have other more affordable means to get Nitrogen then why not give it a try.  It definitely has some beneficial properties.
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