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Author Topic: Help with fresh water pumps not priming  (Read 2376 times)
belfert
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« on: October 22, 2007, 12:20:13 PM »

I have two model 2100 Flojet water pumps in my plumbing system.  They are rated as self priming up to 6 feet suction.  They primed fine with about 6 inches of water in the fresh water tank.  The problem is when I turned off the valves to the tank and tried to pump antifreeze the pumps would not prime. 

Any suggestions on this?  I might just remove the pumps and store inside for the winter as I need to redo all the pumbing anyhow.

Should I have a check valve near the pumps to help with losing prime?  The pumps always took a long time to start delivering water whenever they were turned on.  Part of the problem is due to leaks in my manifolds.

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Dallas
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2007, 12:30:49 PM »

Brian,

If the pumps are sucking air from anywhere at all other than the end of the pickup tube, they will not prime well. The more viscous the liquid, the less chance it will have of priming.

when I was using one 20 yr, old Shurflo pump, it would lift water 6' with no problem, until I developed a pinhole leak in the pickup tube. Then it wouldn't prime itself at all.

IHTH

Dallas
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maria-n-skip
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2007, 12:58:32 PM »

Brian,
 The only thing I would add is.

 If you have ever had a diaphram pump apart such things as calcium deposits etcetera can keep
 the rubber diaphrams from seating correctly. I just used rubbing alcohol to clean and the
 pumps worked better. The other thing to inspect is to make sure there is no rips or pin holes
 in the rubber.

  FWIW
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HB of CJ
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2007, 01:15:22 PM »

Some water pumps are better than others when it comes to pumping from a draft or suction condition rather than from a head or when under water.  Sometimes you have to "fool" the pump into "thinking" it is pumping from a head rather than from suction.

This can be done easily by establishing a condition where the pump always has water above it on the inlet side, rather than having the pump above the water source.  And naturally, even a tiny air leak on the suction side places all bets off.

Finally, some pumps do quite well on water, but for whatever reason (design?) do NOT do well at all pumping stuff that is thicker/heavier than water, such as oils, antifreeze, or thick stuff with trapped air mixed up in the liquid  Good luck.  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2007, 01:37:54 PM »

Something else that helps in the situation where you are trying to lift water with a poor self primer is to design the plumbing so that there is a natural head against the pump.  Nothing fancy, just run the line up as it exits the pump.  That way whatever water is in the system will stay against the pump.  When you have water & air the air will naturally rise through the water and help the pump hold its prime.  It doesn't take much - really all you need to do is make absolutly sure that there isn't a low spot immediately after the pump.  Ideally you would have a vertical riser coming out of the pump but that isn't always possible or necessary.



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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2007, 07:19:59 PM »

Arrrggghh...

I use Shurflo 5.7 extreme pumps, They will just about pump wet air...

However.. They will gum up in the diaphram area due to dirty water like
what comes out of the city taps. It turns almost fuzzy in there after
about a year. Takes a serious chlorine zap and cleaning of the diaphrams
to solve..

Always Pre-filter anything that you put into the tank with a good carbon filter
system. It saves headaches later.

Pin hole air leaks in the suction line can lead to pump destruction too....

Sorry.. I know it didn't fix the problem...
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belfert
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 07:38:31 PM »

My pumps are pretty much brand new.  I just turned them on for the first time maybe four weeks ago.  They have probably 150 gallons of water through them.  I can't see them as being dirty yet, but who knows.  I think I will just pull them and store them inside.

I bought a Flojet Sensor VSD pump to replace these two pumps.  I think I spent about $50 total (Ebay) on the two pumps I have now.

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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2007, 11:27:09 PM »

I have a Sureflo that has been going strong since 1990.  Actually only occupied the coach for three years of that time soooo....  I mounted my pump near the bottom outlet so it is forced to injest water and can't lose its prime.  Other than sweating the pump or line failing and letting all my fresh drain, I can't see why you would mount the pump above the tank. 

John
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belfert
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2007, 06:05:58 AM »

I have a Sureflo that has been going strong since 1990.  Actually only occupied the coach for three years of that time soooo....  I mounted my pump near the bottom outlet so it is forced to injest water and can't lose its prime.  Other than sweating the pump or line failing and letting all my fresh drain, I can't see why you would mount the pump above the tank. 

The pumps are not above the tank, but next to it.  They are mounted on the wall of the bay.  One is about 6 inches above the floor and the other about 15 to 18 inches above the floor.  When the tank is full the water level is higher than either pump.

This seemed like a good place for the pumps at the time since the manual says they are self priming and can be up to 6 feet above the liquid.  I might have room to remount the pumps below the tank when I redo all the plumbing.
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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2007, 06:25:51 AM »

Take the input connections off and check for debris. It many times happens with new installations.
Richard
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2007, 10:43:17 AM »

Belfert,

Hold on there Hoss.  You sound like you have solved your prime problem with a soundly designed installation.  You have a problem not related to height or prime.  The advice about checking for debret sounded really good.  Another post talked about small holes in the feed line.  The feed line can admitt air but not leak water....like a valve in the hole.  And, if you have a restriction along with that leak you have a lead pipe cinch (Sean, jump on that one, OK? Grin) of a problem.   That is something I have seen with fuel lines in the past and a dickens of a problem to isolate.

Just for grins Grin, do two things: 1)  Measure the voltage at the "across" the pump when it is "on".  Pump function falls off dramatically with a small reduction in volts.  2)  Take your pump apart.  4 phillips screws as I recall.  Check for stuff in the pump.

Good hunting,

John
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belfert
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2007, 12:56:25 PM »

Just to clarify, I bought the new pump not because of the priming issue, but because the pumps don't work well when they are working.  The pumps worked all throughout my trip and had no issues with priming from the water tank.  The priming issues started when I tired to pump antifreeze through the pumps.

Every time we turned on the pumps during our trip, it took up to two or three minutes to get water of any usable flow.  Even then, the flow was never very much.

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Dallas
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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2007, 01:07:46 PM »

[q][/q]Every time we turned on the pumps during our trip, it took up to two or three minutes to get water of any usable flow.  Even then, the flow was never very much.[/b]

You may not believe it, and you may not want to hear it, but changing the water pumps out witha newer fancier model isn't gonna help if you don't fix the underlying cause of the problem in the first place.

That under lying cause is that you have an air leak on the suction side of the pumps and that's what allows them to lose prime.
The evidence of losing prime is the lack of instant water at the faucet and low flow.

Oh well, you aren't gonna listen anyway. Throw more money at it instead of fixing correctly in the first place.

Just my 50˘

Dallas
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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2007, 01:21:27 PM »

Again...best quess here is...1) sucking air on suction side.  2) dirt in the works.  3) restrictive plumbing like too small dia. pipe or tight turns, expecially on inlet side.  4)  wrong type pump or mounted too high above water.  5)  no water in tank.  6) no power to pump.  7) no coach.  Smiley Smiley Smiley

We found that running "sweeps" rather than tight diameter turns made a difference on the suction side, along with using larger than necessary suction diameter pipe.  We also ended up using a water filled dedicated vertical "frost riser" pipe between the tank and the pump.  Good luck.
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belfert
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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2007, 03:23:30 PM »

[q][/q]Every time we turned on the pumps during our trip, it took up to two or three minutes to get water of any usable flow.  Even then, the flow was never very much.[/b]

You may not believe it, and you may not want to hear it, but changing the water pumps out witha newer fancier model isn't gonna help if you don't fix the underlying cause of the problem in the first place.

I'm also going to replumb the entre freshwater system.  I have a number of leaks downstream from the pumps.  I had already replaced all the fittings on the suction side of the pumps the same day I first started up the pumps.  I'm fairly confident there are no leaks on the suction side right now.

The original pumps were a gamble anyhow.  They are only 2.3 GPM and that is why I had two of them installed.  I was just reading the specs again and I see they only go to 27 PSI.  I didn't realize that before and that is probably part of the reason they work so poorly.

Sometimes things don't work out on buses the way we thought they would.  My freshwater plumbing doesn't work the way I designed it so I have to redo all of it except the tank itself.  My plumbing had many leaks and I was only able to fix 50% of them before my trip.  We just turned the pumps on and off as necessary and minimized water use.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 03:34:09 PM by belfert » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2007, 11:00:53 PM »

Quote from: belfert
Sometimes things don't work out on buses the way we thought they would.  My freshwater plumbing doesn't work the way I designed it so I have to redo all of it except the tank itself.  My plumbing had many leaks and I was only able to fix 50% of them before my trip.  We just turned the pumps on and off as necessary and minimized water use.

I am not at all surprised! Brian from most of what I've seen you do an excellant job of doing research & you even ask all the right questions! But then 90% or of the time you go and do exactly the opposite of what the majority that has BTDT reccommend! I for the life of me can not understand why you even ask if your gonna try and make what others have found to fail work! Beats all I ever saw got 2 good eyes and still can't see! Sorry not try'n to bust your chops, just tell'n it the way I see it!
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2007, 08:50:03 AM »

BK,

That's not necessarily a detriment. It's the way it should be. A smart busnut will solicit all available information, and then
make an informed decision based on that information AND his needs and applications. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it
doesn't. I've been on the doesn't side of the thing several times in this project.

Brian,

If I recall, you decided to use worm clamps on PEX tubing. Correct? 

I agree with the concensus here that you have a suction leak somewhere or you have debris in your pump valves.

On our AK trip, I developed a leak-back problem on our pump, as did my Father-In-Law, on his identical pump which I had installed for him. The pressure wouldn't hold and the pump would kick on periodically with no use of water. There were no leaks, so it had to be leaking back through the pump. I contacted the mfg, and then opened up the pump head. Turned out I had a piece of teflon tape in my pump head, which was preventing the valves from sealing properly, allowing some of the pressurized water to leak back through. I pulled my Father-In-Law's pump head, too. Didn't find anything obvious in his, but it fixed the problem, so whatever it was got washed out in the dismantle. I've since installed screen filters on the inlet of each pump. They're available for a few bucks at Camping World. Worth the money.

Also, I might suggest you install a 2 gallon pressure tank. Available from Menard's for about $30. Then you always will have pressure at the faucet. leave the pump on all the time you're parked. If you get the leaks fixed, the system will work as it's
intended.
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Craig Shepard
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belfert
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2007, 10:55:55 AM »

BK,

That's not necessarily a detriment. It's the way it should be. A smart busnut will solicit all available information, and then
make an informed decision based on that information AND his needs and applications. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it
doesn't. I've been on the doesn't side of the thing several times in this project.

Brian,

If I recall, you decided to use worm clamps on PEX tubing. Correct? 

I agree with the concensus here that you have a suction leak somewhere or you have debris in your pump valves.

Any suggestions on how to check for leaks in the suction tubing?  There is a loop of about three feet of tubing from the tank outlet to the pump inlets.  The big loop was used to avoid more fittings.  The fittings at the pump are Qest compression fittings and the fittings at the tank are push lock fittings bought at Menards.

I used Oetiker stainless steel stepless clamps along with copper and brass fittings from Menards.  No hose clamps anywhere.  I got the idea to do this from my travel trailer that used Oetiker clamps.  A number of the joints leaked when the system was first pressurized.  There was also a leak in the copper manifold my father and a friend built for the bus.  The travel trailer had used a softer more flexible PEX tubing plus plastic fittings instead of copper so I think that is why it worked there.

I do have a pressure tank, but we let all the air out of it as the it was causing water to leak out of the manifold until the pressure tank was empty. 

I'm going to take the pumps apart soon to see if there is anything in there.  I used teflon paste instead of tape specifically so I wouldn't end up with tape in the pumps.
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maria-n-skip
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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2007, 11:19:51 AM »

Belfert,

Off the wall thought.

 Since the paste was on the suction side. Do yo think it
 is possible to have some Teflon gunk sucked into the pump?

 If you can get to both ends or have a valve at one end.....I'd use an air tank with about
 20 lbs of air and plumb the hose to the pump hose. Turn the air on look listen and have a beverage.

Skip
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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2007, 12:32:30 PM »

Sorry it sounds like you need to overhaul the water pressure system, but after you described the performance of your pump(s) it's easier now to understand why.  Either you get 27 psi, which is NOT a whole lot, or you get 2.3 gpm, which is also NOT a whole lot, but hardly BOTH at the same time.  You trade one for the other.  Again, look closely for suction air leaks.

Usually pumps of this nature and installation trade off psi for gpm or the other way around.  Other than going to the very $spendy$ (and good) positive displacement pumps, your only other answer is to buy a good, high volume diaphragm type RV pump at the highest pressure rating you can find.  Go ahead and spend the money here.

If given a choice, again trade higher pressure for higher volume-or, ideally, go for both.   You will be more happy in the long run.  Higher pressure gives you the feeling of more volume, but not the other way around.  Especially in the shower/sink.  You will need/want at least 35 psi, hopefully 50 psi, at a volume that's reasonable-say 3.5 to 5.0 gpm.  Also a good installation is vital.    Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2007, 12:55:42 PM »

Brian,

I know you have your own way of doing things, as do we all, but in the interest of doing this one more time, and ONLY once more, with zero leaks or pressure problems, here's a proven plan you can choose to follow, or not...

You'll need...
1. A new roll of PEX, and proper PEX cutting device. (Do not re-use any of your existing tubing)
2. The required amount of SharkBite fittings. (cashacme.com) Read the installation directions before use.
3. A ShurFlo 5.7 Extreme Series pump or equivalent (Not close, Equivalent!) with inlet screen/filter.
4. To connect the above parts in your desired plumbing plan.
5. To then cross fresh water plumbing off your list of projects, and move on to whatever's next.

In the event your plumbing plan changes in the future, the SharkBites can be disconnected in one second with a small tool, then reused with no leaking.

Good luck, regardless of your action.

Jay
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belfert
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2007, 01:23:13 PM »

Brian,

I know you have your own way of doing things, as do we all, but in the interest of doing this one more time, and ONLY once more, with zero leaks or pressure problems, here's a proven plan you can choose to follow, or not...

You'll need...
1. A new roll of PEX, and proper PEX cutting device. (Do not re-use any of your existing tubing)
2. The required amount of SharkBite fittings. (cashacme.com) Read the installation directions before use.
3. A ShurFlo 5.7 Extreme Series pump or equivalent (Not close, Equivalent!) with inlet screen/filter.
4. To connect the above parts in your desired plumbing plan.
5. To then cross fresh water plumbing off your list of projects, and move on to whatever's next.

In the event your plumbing plan changes in the future, the SharkBites can be disconnected in one second with a small tool, then reused with no leaking.

This is almost exactly what I plan to do.  I already bought a Flojet Sensor VSD 4.5 pump on sale at Camping World.  I bought the Flojet over the Shurflo due to better reviews and because it will 12 and 24 volt.

I did some research here and on BNO and had already planned to use Sharkbite fittings after seeing a number of recommendations.  I bought some push-lock fittings to do emergency repairs of leaking crimp connections, but I think they might work loose over time in a vehicle.

I was planning to maybe reuse some of the PEX after cutting off the ends.  I will have to buy another 100 foot roll anyhow so I might as well just go all new.

I've got other projects to do before I get back to plumbing.  My next trip will hopefully be in April.
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« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2007, 06:33:21 PM »

Any suggestions on how to check for leaks in the suction tubing?  There is a loop of about three feet of tubing from the tank outlet to the pump inlets.  The big loop was used to avoid more fittings.  The fittings at the pump are Qest compression fittings and the fittings at the tank are push lock fittings bought at Menards.

How do you get the antifreeze suction line into the pump?  Is it Tee'd into the loop from the fresh water tank?

Best way to find leaks is to pressurize it with air. if you have a loop directly from the tank to the pumps, there's only two fittings.
You can undo the tank fitting, and pressurize the line and sustem and spray it with soapy water.

Quote
I used Oetiker stainless steel stepless clamps along with copper and brass fittings from Menards.  No hose clamps anywhere.  I got the idea to do this from my travel trailer that used Oetiker clamps.  A number of the joints leaked when the system was first pressurized.  There was also a leak in the copper manifold my father and a friend built for the bus.  The travel trailer had used a softer more flexible PEX tubing plus plastic fittings instead of copper so I think that is why it worked there.

Yeah, if these are like the oetiker clamps I used on my sprinkler system, this could very well be part of your problems. They are not designed for PEX. If you're going to clamp, you should be using barbed PEX fittings and solid crimp rings designed for PEX.  Oetiker's have an inherent weak spot where they are crimped.

The manifold system I use works great for dealing with all these problems. You can isolate any part of the system and pressureize it from the
inlet. I can suck antifreeze into the pumps and blow it into any part of the system.  If you're planning to redo your system, you might
want to come out and take a look at my manifolds and build similar. Sure make it easy to handle all water system issues.

craig


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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2007, 06:51:11 PM »

John Ed,

I don't really agree with you about not having water leaks on the suction side. If the suction line is below the water tank level as he says and the line has a hole it will leak water. My fuel supply line has sucked air too, but it was quite a bit higher than the fuel tank so it never leaked fuel.

I do agree that it will suck air while pumping but unless it is a big hole it will still pump water. Essentially what he will have is air bubbles in the water.

BK,

As Gumpy is saying, what we post here is informational only, not requirements. Any busnut can do as he pleases on his own bus and is not obligated in any way to follow our recommendations. I hope you're aware that the internet is crammed full of bum dope and these conversion forums are no exception. Don't get me wrong, these forums are great and I'm grateful for them, but all postings are not the final word.

TomC,

Why can't he reuse the pex tubing if it is cut short of the original fitting? I'm completely dumb about pex having never used it or done any plumbing so far. That is due to change very soon on both fresh and waste plumbing
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 07:04:12 PM by gus » Logged

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belfert
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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2007, 12:20:14 AM »

Any suggestions on how to check for leaks in the suction tubing?  There is a loop of about three feet of tubing from the tank outlet to the pump inlets.  The big loop was used to avoid more fittings.  The fittings at the pump are Qest compression fittings and the fittings at the tank are push lock fittings bought at Menards.

How do you get the antifreeze suction line into the pump?  Is it Tee'd into the loop from the fresh water tank?

Best way to find leaks is to pressurize it with air. if you have a loop directly from the tank to the pumps, there's only two fittings.
You can undo the tank fitting, and pressurize the line and sustem and spray it with soapy water.

I forgot to allow for antifreeze so I just disconnected the pushlock fitting at the tank outlet and stuck the PEX stub into my bottle of antifreeze.

I don't have a compressor right now so I will have to borrow one to test with.  I need to get the winterization done soon as it might actually freeze by Saturday.

Quote
Yeah, if these are like the oetiker clamps I used on my sprinkler system, this could very well be part of your problems. They are not designed for PEX. If you're going to clamp, you should be using barbed PEX fittings and solid crimp rings designed for PEX.  Oetiker's have an inherent weak spot where they are crimped.

The manifold system I use works great for dealing with all these problems. You can isolate any part of the system and pressureize it from the
inlet. I can suck antifreeze into the pumps and blow it into any part of the system.  If you're planning to redo your system, you might
want to come out and take a look at my manifolds and build similar. Sure make it easy to handle all water system issues.

I'm not sure why the Oetiker clamps didn't work.  Jayco uses them with success in the RVs they build.  I had to make repairs to my Jayco TT because the water heater bypass valves split one winter and the Oetiker clamps used for repair held fine.  I also noticed on Flair-it's website that they sell Oetiker clamps for PEX.  Nonetheless, I will be using the Sharkbite fittings and forgetting about the Oetiker clamps.

I just looked at your website and the manifolds I built are almost idnetical to what you have, at least for the output side of the pumps.
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« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2007, 06:07:47 AM »

... actually freeze by Saturday.
Quote

Yeah, it's close out there now!

Quote
I just looked at your website and the manifolds I built are almost idnetical to what you have, at least for the output side of the pumps.

I don't have the current manifold set in the website write up yet. If you looked at the ones on the website (laid out on the chest freezer),
they were not used. I made a whole new set.

With the setup I have, I install an air fitting in the side of the coach, and just blow out all the air lines. Then I suck in a gallon of
antifreeze and blow it throughout all the lines with shop air. Takes me about an hour to do a good job and make sure all the water is out.

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Craig Shepard
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